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#198652 - 12/10/17 10:25 PM Re: Hammer "Black Widow Urethane" [Re: nord]
Mkirchie Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 709
A/S/L: 37/M/New Jersey
Fishy might not have been my best choice of words. It's more that it didn't match up with my rev-dominant game, which I believe to be true of asymmetric balls in general. I'd also be concerned about how strong it is, even for urethane. On the bowlingball.com perfect scale, it is stronger than my Vintage Danger Zone. With my game, the Black Widow Urethane might be too strong and defeat the purpose of using urethane. The other night in league, I had a few shots where I got my Turbo a bit outside of 5 at the breakpoint. It roared back for a flush pocket hit every time. I'm still not sure how that ball can do that.

Mark
_________________________
Current Average - 225
HG-300(12)
HS-789

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Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
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#198655 - 12/12/17 12:31 AM Re: Hammer "Black Widow Urethane" [Re: Mkirchie]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 713
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Mkirchie
I'd also be concerned about how strong it is, even for urethane. On the bowlingball.com perfect scale, it is stronger than my Vintage Danger Zone. With my game, the Black Widow Urethane might be too strong and defeat the purpose of using urethane.

Ok, this story may answer your question.

Update on the Widow:

Tonight my doubles team bowled position round and we succeed and won the league title.
My partner used his Alpha Crux and bowled a 726 series which was the high of the league.
But I had trouble the first two games and learned a very important lesson about the Widow Urethane.
This ball needs oil! Lots of it!

When we arrived, a higher rev bowler was practicing on our lanes and throwing right up second arrow.
Well, when our warm up started I stood right foot on 12 1/2 targeting 9 1/2 as I did last week and the Widow was going Brooklyn!
So eventually I had to move left with feet and target, right foot on 16 rolling right up 11 nice and straight.
But even with this, the Widow was dead on arrival.
There simply was not enough volume left to use it.
The Widow was reading the front almost immediately and had nothing left for the back.
I did not know this at first and struggled with the Widow for two games barely getting a 168 and 167.
The ball was simply not striking though I made very good shots.
I left the 8-10 three times on the right lane on what looked like great shots that swept in from the outside and hit high flush.
Finally in game three I balled down to my Dark Legend Solid, moved my right foot right to 13 and targeted second arrow.
The Dark legend skidded over the dry fronts easily and saved it for the back and struck hard.
I got strings of strikes with it and closed with a 209.

Lesson learned?

Black Widow Urethane needs lots of oil in the front, it must have that oil or it will die out fast.
For me and my style, the Dark Legend Solid is several steps down in hook potential from the Widow and is a ball I can go to when the Widow is dying out.

So if you get the Widow thinking it is a dry lane ball, forget it, it is not for dry lanes! Also if you are a high rev bowler and you don't have a lot of volume it probably will die out for you too.

In the USA vs. The World tournament, Jesper was using the Hot Cell and it was dying out and not hitting. But Belmo was using a normal Pitch Black and struck every time hard.

These strong urethane balls (Widow & Hot Cell) can be too much ball!
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Hammer Dark Legend Solid
Hammer Widow Spare

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#198656 - 12/12/17 11:31 AM Re: Hammer "Black Widow Urethane" [Re: nord]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2110
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
Let's not forget the Widow Urethane comes out of the box at 500 grit. That's a lot of surface, even for urethane...especially if your lay down point it outside of the oil line.

500 will force you into oil. But then you're asking urethane to create angle, which, even with this core, it won't do at a consistent and reliable level.

You need to find the surface which allows you to play outside without the ball hooking at your feet. When I was enamored with urethane, I three a Natural at 1500 and it worked great from the 5-6-7 area.
_________________________
Career Highs: 300/759

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#198657 - 12/12/17 01:00 PM Re: Hammer "Black Widow Urethane" [Re: champ]
Dylan585 Offline
2X Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 241
A/S/L: 20/m/ny
I find myself disagreeing with you champ... I sand my judge to 300 and will play in around twelve... It could simply due to the fact that I'm two handed but it bites hard and early while still in the oil... Id say go dull and get in the oil rather then put a higher grit on it and go outside the oil... A urethane ball is supposed to hook early, when you start looking for them to go long is when you run into issues with kicking out corner pins. Ill be curious to see how my tank rampage rolls as I'm getting it tonight... So far Ive been sticking to old school urethane and haven't thrown much new age urethane with the exception of the supernatural
_________________________
2 handed stats:

High game: 257
High series: 710
Average: 191

Bag: storm supernatural, Genesis the judge, motiv paranoia, motiv Forza gt, motiv Arctic sniper

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#198658 - 12/12/17 04:05 PM Re: Hammer "Black Widow Urethane" [Re: nord]
champ Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 2110
A/S/L: 30/M/AZ
Most bowlers won't be able to get urethane to turn the corner when they move in with it. Your two-handed rev rate is likely where we differ in opinion.

I do agree you want urethane to read early. You want it to hook and set. But lower rev/lower speed bowlers will have a ball hook at their feet at 500 grit, regardless of the coverstock material.

1500 is still an aggressive surface for a lower rev rate bowler who likes to play outside in the dry.
_________________________
Career Highs: 300/759

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#198659 - 12/12/17 05:44 PM Re: Hammer "Black Widow Urethane" [Re: champ]
Dylan585 Offline
2X Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 241
A/S/L: 20/m/ny
With the lower rev rate and the later hook does it still maintain the ability to kick out corner pins?
_________________________
2 handed stats:

High game: 257
High series: 710
Average: 191

Bag: storm supernatural, Genesis the judge, motiv paranoia, motiv Forza gt, motiv Arctic sniper

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#198660 - 12/13/17 11:34 AM Re: Hammer "Black Widow Urethane" [Re: Dylan585]
nord Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 713
A/S/L: 40/M/Santee/CA
Originally Posted By: Dylan585
I find myself disagreeing with you champ... I sand my judge to 300 and will play in around twelve... It could simply due to the fact that I'm two handed but it bites hard and early while still in the oil... Id say go dull and get in the oil rather then put a higher grit on it and go outside the oil... A urethane ball is supposed to hook early, when you start looking for them to go long is when you run into issues with kicking out corner pins. Ill be curious to see how my tank rampage rolls as I'm getting it tonight... So far Ive been sticking to old school urethane and haven't thrown much new age urethane with the exception of the supernatural

I agree with you in disagreeing with Champ.
The whole idea of urethane and especially the super strong Widow is to get it to hook really early and set and then roll a long way without any troubling backend reaction.
If the lanes don't have enough head oil to do this, like what I mentioned happened to me on Monday during our doubles finals, then put the ball back in the bag and pull out something weaker that will clear the heads and save something for the back to carry.

You don't want to be forced in with urethane even if you do have high revs. That is not what it is for and it will not succeed this way.

Having said this, I do use my Karma urethane at 2000 grit at Poway because Poway is pretty dry, but at 2000 I can still roll right up second arrow and the ball will still read early and set.

So even though I disagreed with Champ, I will also agree with him and say that a smart player could have a urethane arsenal.
Urethane balls of different types and grits so that urethane can be played the way it was meant to.

In my case perhaps I would start with the Widow and if it is too strong rolling up 9 1/2 then ball down to the Purple Hammer and probably be ok.
If Purple is still too strong then ball down to an even weaker urethane, maybe the Blue Hammer which has 4000 grit or the True Motion.

Remember the goal of urethane is a direct shot with closed down angles and lots of control of the pocket.

And to answer your other question, yes, strong urethane with a low rev player like myself does snap out those corners as long as there is enough oil on the lane so the ball doesn't die out.
Check out my Widow video to see the corners snapped out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqArAVIvtx0
_________________________
High Game: 259 bowled with The Hardwick Rubber Ball at Poway Bowl.
High Series: 630
Composite Avg: 175

Arsenal
Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Hammer Dark Legend Solid
Hammer Widow Spare

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#198665 - Today at 05:50 AM Re: Hammer "Black Widow Urethane" [Re: nord]
Dennis Michael Online   jestera
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9587
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
This is not an argument. there are 2 things happening.

1. The entry angle to the pocket is more direct, resulting in fewer corners being left with the Urethane.
2. At a slower speed, the pins stay on the pin deck longer to hit other pins.

Nord, when you kicked out a 10, it fell late because the 6 pin was still in front of it and not in the gutter. Where it would have been on a faster roll.

My thought on sanding a Pearl is, "it is still a pearl". It will always get more length then a reactive ball. But, the grit may get additional friction in dry. It just seems to be defeating the purpose of the ball. A different ball my be better suited.

And, I don't see my Urethane reading early. It's like old school rubber balls. Some of your early read may come from where the ball path is. Our house is dry outside of 8. On 9, it slides more then on 7.

And, I find I need more speed with my Urethane to keep it outside. I don't want to swing it, but go straight up. My revs may be too high. Speed solves that problem. Otherwise, it's a nose job.
_________________________
LM - Black Diamond 15#
Lord Field - Exodus Pearl 15#
Legends - L/M New Terminator 15#
Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




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