Tips to get back to a semi-roller release?

Posted by: ASUWoody

Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 06/17/09 03:08 PM

Over the years I have noticed that I have been doing things to now have a spinner type release. I used to have my track fairly close to my fingers and thumb,but now it is much much lower! I used to be pretty good on oily conditions and weaker on dryer conditions but with this spinner type release I have flipped the conditions.

What are some drills and tips to get back under the ball and roll it rather than spin it? I am looking for drills that I can spend a hole practice session or more working on to get back to normal by winter season.

Thanks for any and all opinions.

Shawn
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 06/17/09 03:24 PM

Hey, this one I know all about, since I do a spinner as well as a hooker. I like to throw a hooker at least once a week (joke).

Okay, so here's the scoop - for both s spinner and a hooker I come around the side of the ball 90*, so my hand is in the handshake position. The difference is that for the hooker, The hand is behind the ball (firm wrist) and ofr a spinner the hand is on top of the ball (broken or relaxed wrist). I always get to the ankle with the thumb pointing at my target, then quickly twist the wrist.

The other big difference is that for the hooker, the thumb must come out first, while for hte spinner, the thumb and fingers come out more or less simultaneously.

That's all there is to it.

You can practice throwing at home by standing next to your couch and throwing the ball onto it (check with te boss first).
The Slowinski articles are excellent. I do his release as well as the above-described release. The way I do his release is that I do not rotate the wrist. Instead, I hold the ball with a firm wirst so that the fingers are in the lower hemisphere (not cupping the wrist, jsut a firm wrist). I make a 45* angle to the lane. The thumb comes out first. Then, as the ball drops off my fingers, the rotation tat's imparted is 45* to the lane, and I have a nice consistent hook with 45* rotation.

So that's 3 of my 10 shots.... Hope that helps.

Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 06/17/09 03:26 PM

Oh, I remembered one other thing - You might start with the fingers under the ball, but then come over the top with them instead of lettig the ball drop off the hand. That's because you're not keeping the fingers under the ball. SO you need to be conscious of keeping the fingers in the lower hemisphere as you twist the wrist, or in the case of Slowinksi, as the ball drops off the fingers.
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 06/17/09 06:02 PM

You can beef up your forearm by doing wrist curls with a kettlebell. I use a 10#. The advantage over a spring hand exerciser is that it doesn't strain your tendons. My kettlebels are from Kettlenetics, but you can get them from lots of sources. Just Google "kettlebells".

Also, to help you hold onto the ball in the firm wrist position, you might consider changing the pitch of your thumbhole to a more forward pitch.

Another thing you can try is to throw straight for a while, not trying to hook it, but letting your thumb come out first. Let your fingers go towards your target, with a good strong follow-through. Get used to doing this with a firm wrist, then add the twist once you're comfortable with it.



Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 06/18/09 10:10 AM

Originally Posted By: SpareMe
You might start with the fingers under the ball, but then come over the top with them...


I could have said this better - You might start with a firm wrist, and the hand behind the ball. Then as you rotate around the ball, your wrist goes limp, placing the fingers on top of the ball instead of to the side of the ball.
This is why I recommended working out with kettlebells - to make your wrist strong enough to not "drop" the ball as you're releasing it.

Another point - in the releases I do, the midroll is applied by rotation of the wrist around the ball. The side roll is applied by the dropping of the ball off of the hand. If the hand is held in a steady position, and the ball allowed to drop off it, then side revs are applied at whatever angle the wrist has to the lane, regardless of the path of the pendulum swing. The ball will follow the path of the pendulum swing down the lane, with rotation to the side.

If the wrist goes limp as the ball is dropping off it then the revs of the side roll are reduced. The danger of rotating around the ball is that you might pull it to the left. This can happen when you hang onto the ball instead of letting it drop off.



Posted by: djp1080

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/12/19 11:36 AM

Originally Posted By: ASUWoody
Over the years I have noticed that I have been doing things to now have a spinner type release. I used to have my track fairly close to my fingers and thumb,but now it is much much lower! I used to be pretty good on oily conditions and weaker on dryer conditions but with this spinner type release I have flipped the conditions.

What are some drills and tips to get back under the ball and roll it rather than spin it? I am looking for drills that I can spend a hole practice session or more working on to get back to normal by winter season.

Thanks for any and all opinions.

Shawn


This post I'm beginning to know too well. I've likely done it for a while, but I'm throwing more or less a spinner most of the time or at least a low track, very low. The ball hooks pretty well, but it doesn't carry very well much of the time.
I think I'm going to try and reduce my backswing as much as I can and do my best to keep my hand behind the ball and my hand under the ball. I have the Mongoose Optimum wrist device and that may help me or provide some training for my hand and wrist for the time being.
Any one out that who's dealt with this issue and solved it? I'm thinking that the so-call muscle memory that may be at work as I think I'm rolling the ball properly, but then it's not getting into a good roll...
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/12/19 02:23 PM

Try keeping your elbow next to your body and your forearm pointed at your target. Try to keep your thumb at 11 to 1 o'clock. Throwing a spinner means you're up on top your ball and your elbow is away from your body.

Once you get your elbow inside and your forearm pointed at your target, A good wrist brace will help you stay under the ball.

Work on making your ball turn off your hand not your hand going around your ball.
Posted by: BOSStull

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/13/19 09:57 AM

As with what BOAT says I got a habit of feeling my elbow scrape my shirt during the upswing
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/13/19 10:15 AM

Originally Posted By: BOSStull
As with what BOAT says I got a habit of feeling my elbow scrape my shirt during the upswing

Okay BOAT and BOSS,
I think I have it. My last night in this past season's league I did pretty well with a 203-179-203. Had two rails in the 2nd game as I recall.
Kept my elbow in all night long. I'd swing the ball once before I made my approach on some shots. Seemed to help me relax.
Guess my mind is thinking too much. I'll keep at it.
Thanks guys!
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/13/19 03:33 PM

Throwing a spinner is the combination of a number of questionable habits. Keeping your elbow in will help but one other thing is to simply relax your arm swing and keep it fully extended. Too many of us let our timing get too early thinking we will add leverage. Just the opposite is true. A relaxed arm swing will increase speed, RPM's and accuracy. When we try to throw the ball instead of swing the ball, a number of problems arise do to tightening of muscles from the waist up.

First, our back muscles tighten which will cause our shoulders to square up reducing both body tilt and body angle. Next, as our forearm tightens to 'goop' up the shot, it actually slows down the arm and stiffens the wrist which will reduce speed and RPM's.

Think of a whipping action. That's where speed and RPM's come from. Everything we do that interferes with our swing only hurts the final seconds before we release.
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/14/19 11:29 AM

Boat, I have questionable bowling habits. They came back when I returned to bowl fairly regularly after having not rolled a ball for nearly 30 years.
I just recalled that when I marked my PAP with a small piece of white tape that the PAP is just right of the left side of my hand as I'm holding the ball in my normal stance. Generally my fingers are at about 45 degrees to the left and so the PAP is about 45 degrees to the left from straight back towards the settee area.
I should just keep it there with my hand under the ball as best I can and I should probably be good to go. It seems to me that the Mongoose Optimum may help me a little bit to stay right there through the entire swing.
We'll see... Again, thanks...
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/14/19 02:30 PM

Learning to work a ball inside out without going around the ball is difficult. My problem is just the opposite of most. I get too much up the back. I'm an old full-roller who converted. My PAP is over 6-3/16 and down 3/8.

To get out of the ball but stay behind it, I spread my index finger just a little and keep it pointed straight down. That puts my ring and middle fingers around 7 o'clock and my hand comes out clean without my elbow flying away. Staying relaxed until the ball is just behind my left foot insures my elbow stays inside during my release.

As I age, everything that 'was' so easy gets more difficult.
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/14/19 07:14 PM

I guess I'm trying to keep my fingers on the inside. I, too, am a converted full-roller guy and my PSO had my PAP at 5.5" over and nearly 1" up.
The tip of my index finger is spread about 1.5" away from the middle one.
If I do things (what I call) properly, my fingers are at 7 o'clock as well.
In order to stay behind the ball I think I'm going to have to feel like my hand is opening up to the right on the back swing even though it may actually only be straight back.
It's almost like I'm not aware of what's happening back there and that's a problem. I might just come around the side of the ball without wanting to. Perhaps my body doesn't care much for the feeling of doing things a certain way that I'm attempting to do... Don't know...
Perhaps 1000 one-step drills might help.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/14/19 09:39 PM

I learned when I was young to have a number of checkpoints in my backswing that kept me in the right position on the way back and on the way forward. Here's another; As we age our muscles in our arms atrophy. One of the easiest ways to see this effect is to stand with your arms hanging down to your side and see how much further your thumbs hang inside when relaxed. It becomes especially bad when you then hang a bowling ball on that arm. Many people don't even notice but their thumb will rotate inside 90 degrees on the way back. If they then try to 'pull' from the top instead of 'swing' from the top, a fly-away elbow will begin the inevitable process of going around the ball. We think we can control the ball, but our muscles aren't what they were and even 13 pounds can make the hand go around instead inside out.

Why is everyone pulling from the top? They want more speed. As we age speed wanes, but not because of our arm-swing. Our speed wanes because of our footspeed. As we age we are less sure of our balance. To compensate, we go slower. The answer is strength but few of us are willing to do the necessary exercise to strengthen our legs, so we can be more balanced and increase our speed :-) Even for those who can, eventually, we all slow down. Accepting our limitations is another problem we have :-) I have many friends who whine about lane conditions because they are unwilling to admit to themselves they just aren't the bowler they once were.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/14/19 10:35 PM

let me add something.

I find, with a lot of seniors I work with, as soon as they push off, their fingers point straight to the floor, and they stay that way til the release. This puts the hand on top of the ball with very little ball rotation at release. Often, they resort to a wrist turn to get the ball to hook.

The problem is that the ball comes off their hand with the fingers and thumb simultaneously.

Remember: YOUR FINGERS HAVE TO BE UNDER THE EQUATOR OF THE BALL AT RELEASE!!

An exercise I use is to put their hand in the ball and rest the ball on a table or counter, with their knuckles touching the table top. Their thumb is up and fingers are below the equator.
Then, push the ball, sliding it on the table and pull your thumb out, leaving fingers in the ball. Continue pushing then lift their hand pulling the fingers up.
This gives them the feeling of how the release should be and it's very different from theirs. The feeling is on their finger tips, mainly the ring finger, as it should be.

After a few practice rolls, they can eventually feel the difference and a light bulb goes off in their head.

Oh, and they get ball rotation and a hook without twisting their wrist or forearm.

PS: Unlearning the old habit takes time.
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/15/19 12:37 AM

Thanks Dennis,
As I look at my fingers it looks as though I have a short dark line at the end of my middle finger and maybe a tinge on my ring finger. If I have my hand in the right position, I can tell I released it well.
I don't want to try your exercise at home. I'll have to try it at or near the lanes. I'd like to feel how that is. Good exercise.
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/15/19 12:48 AM

Boat, For me it's not a tendency of pulling the ball down from the top to get more speed it the bad habit of pulling the ball up higher into the back swing. As for weight I have several balls at 15 lbs and the newest ball I have is 14 lbs.
When I first came back to this game, my ball speed was probably 18 to 19 mph. Just about any ball I'd get in my hands would go straight. With some coaching, etc., I'm now at around 15 mph on straight spare shots. I'm pretty flexible and post most shots. Balance doesn't seem to be an issue. It's just bad habits that I need to convince my body to break away from.
I think I'm going to have to get used to the feeling that my hand is wide open to the right on the back swing and allow that to happen. It feels kind of weird, but it might be the trick. Just don't think I could do what Amletto does on his.
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/19/19 10:50 AM

In the midst of things I came across this article: https://www.billspigner.com/pdf/0319_Bill_BJI.pdf
So I used this drill successfully for a number of shots, then I moved to the one step drill for more shots again successfully. Didn't take any videos, but one of the guys watched my swing height and hand movement. During the drills my fingers were staying inside. Index finger pointing toward the pins at start and fingers on top of the ball at the top of the swing. All good stuff.
Went to a 4-step approach and was able to accomplish much the same and the ball got into a nice roll. On occasion though my arm got into somewhat of a hitch near the top of the swing, but my hand was still able to be near the right position at the release. On those shots my accuracy and reaction suffered.
So I've been doing both of the drills here at home without releasing the ball. Keeping my elbow in helps a lot on all. Keeps my fingers inside and get good reaction.
I've got to get this to become a habit rather than extreme swing height and inconsistent hand motion during the swing... Practice, practice, practice...
Posted by: BOSStull

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/21/19 12:42 PM

Dip you said you had to pull the ball up into the backswing. If you are pulling the ball up you may be muscling and gripping the ball. You can generate a higher backswing without using any added muscle simply by leaning forward increasing spine tilt after the ball drops into your swing. You have to do it at the correct time and takes a little practice.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/21/19 01:29 PM

Boss is right. A forward lean raises your backswing.
Many people cut their backswing short, and pitch the ball onto the lane. Free up your arm and let it swing naturally. Lean forward and your backswing will free up.

it is interesting, but you gain a lot more speed with a freer roll rather then a twist on the ball
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Tips to get back to a semi-roller release? - 07/21/19 07:26 PM

Okay Guys, Thanks again.
Boss, just to clarify, I don't have to pull the ball up on the back swing, but based upon coaching I was made aware that that is what I do most every shot. I guess I've got pretty good back muscles or something, don't know.
In the stance I tend to start with the ball pretty low, below the waist. I tend to bend my knees a bit and do lean forward a little to have steady balance. I like to start with my left foot and can manage a four or five step approach with decent timing.
I realize that if I can get the ball into a roll that it will naturally have decent speed.
On spare shots the speed meter shows somewhere between 14 and 15 mph these days. On first ball shots the ball shows a speed of 11 to 12.5 mph.
When practicing swings at home, I keep the swing down and can manage to keep my hand in the same position throughout. Again, that is with the index finger pointing straight ahead and the middle & ring fingers curled to the left more or less pointing 45 degrees away from straight ahead.
Use tiered tape in the thumb hole and I recently placed a couple of layers of short pieces of white tape where my thumbnail rests. I can hardly wiggle my thumb at all. I've done this for a few years now. Gotten away from the power lifts on the finger grips, too. Use ovals. Ball feels like a glove when I put my hand into it...