axis rotation & axis tilt

Posted by: maf_south

axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/12/03 11:13 PM

This two confuse me all the time and the following are what I understand:

1. When I release my ball at the foul line (assume I'm a stroker and style is 10 10), my hand is completely behind the ball and roll forward.

in this case, the ball axis is parallel to the foul line, therefore the axis rotation 0 degree because axis rotation is measured the angle between the ball axis and the horizontal line.

in terms of axis tilt, it is 90 degree because axis tilt is measured the angle between the ball axis and the vertical line. the ball axis is also 90 degree angle as compared to the gutter - but this one I dont know the term to describe it.

2. When I release my ball at the foul line (again assume I'm a stroker and style is 10 10), my hand is completely at the side of the ball and rotate counter clock-wise (right-hander).

in this case, the ball axis is 90 degree angle to the foul line, therefore the axis rotation 90 degree.

in terms of axis tilt, it is also 90 degree as compared to the vertical line. the ball axis however is 0 degree angle as compared to the gutter.

3. When I release my ball at the foul line (again assume I'm a stroker and style is 10 10), my hand is completely at the side of the ball and move forward (right-hander), commonly known as spinning the ball.

in this case, the ball axis is 90 degree angle to the foul line, therefore the axis rotation 90 degree.

in terms of axis tilt, it is also 0 degree as compared to the vertical line. the ball axis however is 90 degree angle as compared to the gutter.

4. When I release my ball at the foul line (again assuming I'm a stroker and style is 10 10), my hand is half at the back of the ball and half at the side of the ball and rotate counter clock-wise (right-hander) ie 45 degree release.

in this case, the ball axis is 45 degree angle to the foul line, therefore the axis rotation 45 degree.

in terms of axis tilt, it is also 45 degree as compared to the vertical line. the ball axis is also 45 degree angle as compared to the gutter.

Now:

If someone asks tell me to increase my axis rotation, that means I have to place my hand more to the side of the ball.

If someone ask me to increase my axis tilt, that means I have to make the ball axis lessor angle to the gutter and larger angle to the vertical line. To do that I have to place my hand more to the side of and under the ball and rotate counter clock-wise.

Can anyone tell me whether I'm correct and pinpoint where are the wrongs.
Posted by: RAY200

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/13/03 10:47 AM

To do an accurate discussion of this topic ,we must establish the difference between axis of rotation and axis tilt .Some times people use thes terms interchangebly , they are NOT .They have a different meanings. Axis of rotation is define as how far the axis of rotation is rotating from a pure forward roll in the horizontal direction ,wich is measured in degrees.

Axis tilt is defined as how far the positive end of the axis of rotation is above the middle of the ball measured in degrees .

Axis of rotation is in the horizontal plane while axis tilt is in the vertical plane .I hope this will help you understand a little more. wink
Posted by: maf_south

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/14/03 05:21 AM

Ray200 I'm sorry to say your words don't help me a cent.
Posted by: Coachrich

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/14/03 07:51 AM

Hi Maf south,

Let me give it a shot...

Let's view the ball from the top for the explanation of axis of rotation:

........***
.......*....*
.....*........*
.......*....*
........***

(That's suppose to be a ball...use your imagination.) Try to ignore the dots. I had to use them as placeholders because the graphic collapsed (spaces eliminated) when I posted.


.........^
.........|
.......***
......*.^.*
---*...|...*---
......*....*
.......***


The carot and the line at the top symbolize an arrow indicating the direction the ball is traveling down the lane. (Remember, we're viewing from the top.) The arrow inside the graphic indicates the direction the ball is rotating. The three hyphens on either side indicate the axis about which the ball is rotating. Since it is traveling in the same direction it is rotating, we have 0 degree axis rotation.

As you concluded, this would be a ball released with the hand fully behind and up the ball.


.........^
.........|
.........|
.........|
.........|
.......***
......*....*
.....*..<-..*
......*....*
.......***
.........|
.........|
.........|

Same direction of travel, but the ball is skidding. The direction the ball is rotating is 90 degress from the direction of travel as indicated by the arrow inside the ball. Again, the three dashed lines symbolize the axis on which the ball is rotating as viewed from the top.

This would be the 'cranker' release. As you noted, with the release effort focused on the side of the ball.


................/
.........^..../
.........|.../
.......***
......*....*
.....*..\...*
......*....*
.......***
....../
...../
..../

Hopefully you have guessed from this really ugly graphic, this is a 45 degree axis of rotation. The slash in the ball is the direction the ball is rotating. I couldn't put an arrowhead on it because there is nothing on the keyboard that looks like a 45 degree arrowhead.

AXIS TILT:

For axis tilt, we lay down on the approach and look at the back of the ball as it travels away from us:


.......***
......*.|.*
---*...|..*---
......*.|.*
.......***

Again, the three hypens on either side of the ball indicate the axis about which the ball is rotating, but viewed from the rear. In this case the axis of rotation is horizontal with respect to the lane. That would be zero degree axis tilt. The three lines inside the ball symbolize the oil line or 'track' of the ball. The track would essentially be dividing the ball in half for a zero degree axis tilt.


................/
............../
............./
.......***
......*\...*
.....*..\...*
......*..\.*
.......***
....../
...../
..../

The three slashes outside of the ball graphic is the axis about which the ball is rotating. Since we are viewing the ball from the rear, the axis is tilted 45 degrees. The lines inside the ball poorly represent the ball track. The track would actually be about halfway between the lower axis point and the center of rotation of the ball. In other words, the more axis tilt, the smaller the track as it gets closer to the axis point.


.........|
.........|
.........|
.......***
......*....*
.....*......*
......*....*
.......***
.........|
.........|
.........|

This is the 'helicopter'. The axis of rotation is perpendicular to the lane. For explanation purposes, there is no track because the ball is spinning about the contact point on the lane.

Hope this helps,
Posted by: DTB300

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/14/03 09:41 AM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by Coachrich:
Hi Maf south,

Let me give it a shot...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Rich...Excellent way to describe rotation and tilt. This is a very hard thing for most bowlers to understand and the visual along with the words made it much better. Great work...

See ya in a few days...

Dan
Posted by: maf_south

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/15/03 03:16 AM

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

coachrich, thank you very much for your illustruation particularly on axis tilt even though I still not 100% understand. I'll try to read more books to get it right.
Posted by: joel

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/20/03 11:14 AM

Coach Rich, First let me say applause for your
drawing of the axis tilt and axis rotation. Next
I almost understand it. That amazes me. I don't
think I will use this cause there is enough doubt
in my mind to stay away. But what can be done with
a computer may not be able to be done with a bowling ball. You are better at what you do then
I thought. Keep up the good work.

SOME DAY I"LL THROW A 300 GAME
BOWLING JOEL
Posted by: Tblues

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/24/03 04:56 PM

I understand the graphics. They were done well considering the medium here! Thanks a bunch!

But how do I determine what my axis of rotataion and tilt is? Heck I just try to get it down the lane where I can reasonably control it. Should I have someone watch me and guestimate or should I video tape myself from above and behind and try to measure it? Does anyone know how to get the most accurate measurement of these attributes of my roll?
Posted by: Coachrich

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 02/05/03 07:28 AM

Tblues,

You can see it by putting tape on your axis point and observing the tape as the ball travels down the lane.

After throwing the ball and retreiving it from the return, look for the oil ring. There may be several rings that intersect at two points depending upon how the ball was drilled for reaction.

Put the ball in an ashtray so that the ring is on the top half of the ball and level to the floor. If several rings, use the ring closest to the thumb hole.

The point at the top and bottom of the ball is your axis of rotation. Place a piece of white tape (white ball tape used to adjust hole size will do) at the very top of the ball.

When you throw the ball, you will should see the tape as a solid spinning dot. If it looks like a small ring, you may need to adjust the tape position until you find the axis point.

If the ball had several rings, the tape should look like a solid dot, then begin to 'wobble'. This is called axis migration and is evident on balls drilled for more reaction on the back end.

If the dot is spinning parallel to the lane and pointed to the side wall of the bowling center you have zero degrees of axis tilt (dot parallel to the lane) and zero degress axis of rotation (dot pointed toward the wall).

As the dot is directed more toward the lane, the more axis tilt. As the dot is pointed more toward you, the greater the axis of rotation.

Hope this helps,
Posted by: Tblues

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 04/07/03 09:34 AM

Thank you for the tip!! I remember a coach putting a round piece of tape on the outside of my track when I was a teenager. When I shot, the tape seemed to stay on the left side, almost as if it were floating. But when my ball got farther down the lane, it began to move slightly towards me and to the ceiling. I'm going to try it now and see if I'm rolling it any different. I never thought it would help me find the angles of rotation and tilt, so I guess that's what my coach was looking for.
Posted by: Anakin Skywalker

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 04/07/03 07:16 PM

I still think the best way to describe the differences between axis tilt and axis rotation is the Dukes of Hazzard model.

When Bo and Luke Duke drive the car and do a side wheelie on the two left tires, the tires are still pointed straight ahead, but they're on their side a bit. About 20-30 degrees maybe? That is axis tilt.

When Bo and Luke Duke make a U-turn at about 45 miles an hour, they turn the steering wheel as far to the side as the wheels can go - that is axis rotation. Going straight is zero degrees axis rotation - turning left is about 45-50 degrees axis rotation.

Now imagine them turning left while doing the side wheelie - that tire has 45 degree axis rotation and about 25 degree axis tilt.....

...THAT is what a bowling ball does wink

(I loved that TV show) laugh
Posted by: Coachrich

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 04/15/03 08:06 AM

The key to teaching is being able to relate the theory to something the learners are familiar with. EVERYBODY knows about them Duke boys and their antics with the General Lee.

Nice Job Anakin.
Posted by: Tblues

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 05/23/03 01:27 PM

Can you do that analogy again, but somehow work some Daisy Dukes into it?

smile
Posted by: PDUK1

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/01/04 06:03 PM

Hi All & Coach Rich

This is all very interesting and I often check my ball for oil from the ball return. I often find that there are often four to five rings of oil on my ball, running realtivly close to the thumb hole. What does this indicate, what should I be looking for, what is it that I am looking to acheive? Sorry if this is a basic question to a complex science!

Are there any good books that I can get. I did attend a [censored] Ritger camp many years ago when he came to the UK.

Kind Regards

Peter
Posted by: Badger

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 07/19/04 09:50 AM

I would also like to know more about the oil ring on the ball. I have been told that if the ring is too near the thumb hole I should adjust my release. The person said that I should imagine a clock and place my thumb at about 11 o clock. I have questioned them again but I still cannot work out what they are trying to tell me. If this is not anything to do with axis of tilt and rotation I am sorry.

Badger
Posted by: JurseyJim

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 10/29/04 11:36 PM

I copied this from the ebonite site.

Axis tilt and axis rotation deal with the angle at which the ball is revolving. The ball revolves on two planes: 1) horizontal, and 2) vertical. The angle of the ball's revolutions dictates the resistance to forward roll. Resistance to forward roll is synonymous with skid, delaying the breakpoint of the ball. The breakpoint is the point on the lane where the ball starts to make its move to the pocket.

Axis tilt is the vertical angle at which the ball rotates. Axis tilt is what is commonly known as spin. Axis tilt is determined by the position of the thumb during the release. If the hand turns too early, the thumb exits on top of the ball. Bowlers with a high degree of axis tilt will be able to see the top of their hand during the release and follow through. Being able to have the thumb exit at the bottom of the down swing minimizes axis tilt.

Axis tilt will induce skid and reduce the amount of backend hook potential. With the core rotating in a more vertical fashion, oily lanes will be the enemy, drier lanes its friend.

Axis rotation is the horizontal measure of the angle of the ball's revolutions. It is also determined by the release. It is the release position of the fingers that dictates the amount of axis rotation. Axis rotation is commonly known as side roll. When the fingers exit the ball in a 6:00 position, the ball is sent into an end-over-end roll. This is known as 0 degrees of axis rotation, the absolute minimum. This ball will have no chance of hooking, regardless of the amount of revolutions, ball speed, and lane conditions. The ball will have immediate forward roll. Think of it as being behind the wheel of a car with the steering wheel straight. The tires will face in a north-south direction. The car will go straight, not being able to negotiate a curve in the road.

If the fingers exit the ball in a 3:00 position, caused by a rotation of the hand in a counter-clockwise direction, 90 degrees of axis rotation will result. This will give the ball a tremendous hook angle when it encounters friction. This is similar to being in that same car. However the steering wheel is now turned so that the tires are angled to the left. When the accelerator is engaged, the car will **** violently to the left. (For lefthanders, the fingers will exit the ball at a 9:00 position, the hand rotates in a clockwise direction, and the car wheels would be pointed to the right).

Most players have a finger exit somewhere in between 0 and 90 degrees. The halfway point, 45 degrees, will see the fingers exit the ball at 4:30 at the release point (7:30 for lefthanders). This is the most versatile release position. Please consult the Surface Friction Guide, True Grit, for pictures of axis rotation and axis tilt.

Axis rotation also will cause the ball to skid further but, unlike axis tilt, will cause a dramatic hook angle at the breakpoint. 90-degree axis rotation is often quite uncontrollable at the breakpoint. High degree of axis rotation players will also tend to like drier lanes; minimal axis rotation will tend to like more oil.

The ball, as it is rolling down the lane, will lose axis rotation due to encountering friction. The rate at which the ball loses axis rotation (side revolutions turning into end-over-end revolutions) will be determined by the initial axis rotation, the amount of ball speed, the amount of axis tilt, and the amount of oil on the lane. For the best carry percentage, we want the ball to lose axis rotation (enter into an end-over-end roll) just as it enters the pocket. This will give a strong angle of entry into the pocket and the proper amount of deflection.

Your pro shop technician will be able to assist you in determining your axis tilt and axis rotation. While it is not necessary to know the exact angle, knowing whether you have low, medium, or high amounts of each will make understanding your ball's reaction easier.
Posted by: cheetah

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 02/09/05 07:09 PM

A few years ago, someone pointed out that on my release, I was coming around the side too much, and the ball was spinning more than it was rolling. They told me that the more the ball spins, the less the rotation of the ball translates it's momentum to the pins.

Is it safe to say that a ball that rolls and has a tight rotation about its axis will have a higher angular momentum, and therefore will drive through the pins more? Or is a level of deflection a good thing?
Posted by: 802dave

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 02/10/05 12:51 PM

I think it was Marshall Holman that stated in his book that it is mainly a forward rolling ball that creates pin-clearing power; in other words minimal rotation and tilt.

According to Marshall, you want mainly forward revs; with a cupped wrist, release through the ball, not around it.

I do come around the ball somewhat, but I try to release through the ball at the target.

A little deflection is desirable or you end up with what I did a few weeks ago; I had the 1st nine and hung a 9-pin on the 1st ball in the 10th.

Hope this helps!
Dave
Posted by: Coach04

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 02/10/05 06:34 PM

Forward roll begins after pin migration, release determines the migration point in the ball path. You do not want minimal tilt and rotation. You want the amount it takes to cause the ball to migrate just before heading into the pocket. With some lane conditions that may be a minimal amount, others it may be a major amount.

It all depends on if the ball is going long, or going short. Learning to control axis tilt and rotation can make you a heck of a versatile bowler.
Posted by: cheetah

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/11/05 11:32 AM

Coach04,

The other night in league I was really frustrated because my ball was over-hooking, and someone pointed out that I was releasing with a 90 degree axis tilt. I had thought that I was releasing more end over end. How wrong could you be...?! So now I'm working on controlling my axit tilt.

So my question is, is 90 degrees too much for any lane condition, or are there times when it is appropriate?
Posted by: Darrell

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/11/05 01:34 PM

Hello Bowling fans! Cheetah, I think you mean to say axis of rotation. When the bowling ball is released at 90 degrees axis of rotation, the ball tends to skid longer on oil, but when it hits the dry... left turn hard! To achieve 90 degree rotation of axis your hand must come around the ball and release the ball at about 3 o'clock. You must be coming up the side of the ball. Try experimenting coming more up the back of the ball, releasing at say 5 o'clock or between 4 & 5 o'clock producing about a 45 degree rotation of axis. This you will find will tend to produce a more controlled hook. Check out this web sight: Watch the stroker release (5 o'clock) verses the Cranker release (4 o'clock).
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/kVideo.htm#Ball
Posted by: cheetah

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/11/05 02:13 PM

Darrell,

Yes, I think you're right. Whichever the case, my ball is rotating such that the axis is pointing back at me.
Posted by: Darrell

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/14/05 07:07 AM

Hello Cheetah. It seems like you are releasing the ball at 3 o'clock. Your hand is apparently coming around the ball and coming up the side. You will be looking at the axis point of the ball in this case. When your ball hits the dry therefore, the reaction is going to be a violent hook on certain lane conditions. Obviously you can control this in most situations because you have a nice bowling average. But as you know some lane conditions will not allow you to use your "A" game, so you MUST develope a "B" game. I am working through the same problem as you. I am using a new release the league play and work on my "B" game in every practice session. I am going to consult a Gold level coach in the off season. May I suggest, that you do the same. You already have a great game. Think continuous Improvement.
Posted by: cheetah

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/14/05 04:47 PM

Darrell,

I tried different releases in practice this weekend, working on releasing with my hand closer to 5 o'clock. By reaching out a little further in my release, it was a lot easier to stay behind the ball. Even on dry lanes I was able to keep the ball outside of the 10 board from the lay down point to the breakpoint, and even shot a 279 in one of my games.

I figure that under different circumstances, my axis of rotation had been less than 90 degrees, but I never realized it, let alone knew what it took to control it.

802dave,

You talked about forward roll creating more pin-clearing action. Do you think this applies to single pins too, particularly when shooting the 7-10? I've never come even remotely close to picking up the 7-10, probably due to the way I throw the ball. I use a plastic ball, but my 90 degree axis rotation doesn't kick the pin up at all or send it off the back wall. I tried the new release on the 10 pins, and wouldn't you know it, I had the 10 pin roll across the 7 pin spot 5 times in the 10 games I bowled (if only I had left the 7 pin too).
Posted by: Darrell

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/15/05 10:06 AM

Hello all. Cheetah, you can shoot 211 averages with that kind side rotation, thats great. Next season you are going to be truly awesome. By the way, if you can bottle it, I will buy some. Happy Bowling.
Posted by: Gutter_Cleaner

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/23/06 03:43 AM

Hmm, 7-10 conversions and axis tilt. Well, I've been lucky enough to pick up two 7-10's, luck being the key word, and on both conversions the rotation or roll of the ball really had no impact on the way the ball contacted the corner pin. Both times I through at the 10 pin (right handed) because it was easier to generate speed and momentum aiming towards the pin that was outside of my right shoulder. Also I didn't want to chance cracking my ankle!=) The key for both of my conversions was to focus on creating a "dead roll". In terms of axis tilt and axis rotation, well, I didn't want any. I kept my wrist completely broken throughout the swing and release; this allowed a very free swing as well as eliminated wrist action at the point of release, ofcourse no "snapping" allowed! The second thing I focused on was to release the ball with fingers and thumb at the same time. By doing this there is a skid that occurs not from axis rotation, but from an honest "dead" rolling ball. Have you ever seen a beginning bowler lob a house ball down the lane at what seems to be at a hundred miles an hour and you can actually see the thumb hole on top of the ball at it plain out skids through across the entire lane? Well, that's the release you want. Hardest part: try not to rocket the ball into the pit! Just flow with your natural rhythm and swing, the power will be there if you trust your natural momentum.
Posted by: nublet

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/24/06 10:28 AM

http://www.columbia300.com/innovation/techdocs.cfm?id=1
Posted by: Gutter_Cleaner

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/25/06 02:23 AM

Hey nublet, that was an awesome little document on axis and rotation. I'm surprised it was so simply explained considering it was from a ball manufacturer. I've learned so much from this thread; this is great!
Posted by: BackToStorm

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 02/20/08 03:08 PM

oops! Used my mobile and accidentally posted in the wrong thread. sorry!
Posted by: warhog19

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/21/09 01:02 PM

Let me make sure I'm "tracking". Axis tilt refers to front to back and axis of rotation refers to side to side?
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/21/09 01:19 PM

warhog...

Axis of rotation is the point at which the ball is spinning around measured from perpendicular to the lane. Axis tilt is the angle of rotation from the surface. Your right, I was just giving another explaination so I make sure I understand what you are saying.
Posted by: warhog19

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/21/09 02:14 PM

yep, I got it now!
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/21/09 03:16 PM

another way of looking at it is a bicycle, turning the handle bars is like axis rotation, leaning is like axis tilt.
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/21/09 03:54 PM

Good analogy CoachJim! That is a great way to think about it.
Posted by: wadud

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 04/21/09 06:06 AM

i'm also confuse with this 2 things. Axis Tilt and Axis Rotation. how want to determine which is axis tilt and axis rotation? axis rotation is ball track?
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 04/21/09 09:30 AM

Both create your track. CoachJim has a great analogy just above. Imagine the center of the ball is the tire on a bike, as you turn the wheel you are adding axis of rotation, as you lean to make a corner that is adding axis tilt.
Posted by: TurboNerd

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 05/13/09 02:02 PM

Editted: found my answer :p

Posted by: wadud

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 07/30/09 08:22 PM

if not mistaken, if the ball have a side roll, that mean we have a high axis rotation isn't it?

if the track so close to finger and thumb holes, that mean we have low axis tilt isn't it?
Posted by: skyblue

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/08/09 01:54 AM

Originally Posted By: wadud
i'm also confuse with this 2 things. Axis Tilt and Axis Rotation. how want to determine which is axis tilt and axis rotation? axis rotation is ball track?


If I am not mistaken, axis tilt and axis of rotation are the same axis.
Axis of rotation is the axis about which the ball spins.
Axis tilt is the angle of the axis from the floor level (horizontal).


Happy bowling!
Posted by: spr3wr

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/08/09 12:06 PM

http://www.innovativebowling.com/images/charts/Measuring_Axis_Tilt_And_Rotation.gif
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/08/09 04:03 PM

Axis rotation != Axis of rotation.

Axis of rotation is the line around with the ball spins. It includes the PAP and NAP.

At the foul line, looking down from above, axis rotation is the angle difference between the the foul line and the axis of rotation.

At the foul line, looking from behind, axis tilt is the angle difference between the foul line and the axis of rotation.

So, axis tilt measures the difference between the axis of rotation and the ground - how much the PAP points to the air. Axis rotation measures the difference between the axis of rotation and the direction it's traveling - how much the PAP points back towards the bowler.

Note that all 3 of those values will change as the ball travels down the lane. The axis of rotation changes as the ball flares, and axis tilt and axis rotation change as the ball encounters friction - when the ball is rolling, both are 0.
Posted by: wadud

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/10/09 04:56 AM

i think the better way to explain about this things with using a graphic method
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/10/09 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By: wadud
i think the better way to explain about this things with using a graphic method


Care to share your ideas on how to explain it? Maybe it will be something that will make more people understand.
Posted by: wadud

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/30/09 08:24 AM

high axis tilt can be looking at spinner style of bowling. the ball will spin fast but less hook (skid only). for big hook (cranker), the axis tilt will be low because the ball not spin fast but rotation. for spinner, axis tilt is high

axis rotation for spinner is to low and for big hook is high if not mistaken
Posted by: spr3wr

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/30/09 08:55 AM

http://www.innovativebowling.com/images/charts/Measuring_Axis_Tilt_And_Rotation.gif
Posted by: wadud

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 08/30/09 03:32 PM

thanks
Posted by: Zeph

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 11/21/09 07:53 AM

To continue on the analogy of Coach, I suggest using the images at Ron C's article on releases: http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip35.htm

Posted by: wadud

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 12/10/09 03:20 PM

thanks
Posted by: Bowling Boy

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 12/30/10 10:04 AM

I'm a Right Handed Bowler, I Rotate my Axis approximately 45. My Axis Tilt is low, maybe 5 up towards the ceiling.

What would adding more Tilt do to my throw?
Posted by: Bowling Boy

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/09/11 02:47 PM

So, as the Axis Tilt is Increased from 0 towards 90, the Ball will Carry down the lane Further, but it will Break Less in the Backend.

Increasing Axis Tilt is difficult, and just not worth it. imho

Your better off changing Balls if you need to get down the Lane Further.
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/09/11 03:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Bowling Boy
Increasing Axis Tilt is difficult, and just not worth it. imho

Everybody should bowl the way they want to. I myself usually have either almost no axis tilt or 90* tilt (spinner).

However, I have seen how a 30-45* axis tilt can improve the shot under certain conditions.

It's easy to get a big axis tilt. Just come around the side of the ball as you're simultaneously uncupping, and dump it without any lifting by the fingers.


Posted by: ijohn83

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/09/11 04:31 PM

Originally Posted By: cgeorg
all 3 of those values will change as the ball travels down the lane.

I would add "on a well thrown ball". Too often I watch my PAP stare right at me, unchanging, all the way to the pocket. Lol!

~John
Posted by: JackZ

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/09/11 05:53 PM

I ran into a guy online who wanted to increase his axis tilt. To him, he wasn't getting enough tilt. After asking a couple of questions, I found out he tends to come around the ball way too much....and he wants to come around more?? <g>

As for myself, I tend to be 10-20* tilt.
Posted by: metguy

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/19/11 10:22 PM

Originally Posted By: ijohn83
Originally Posted By: cgeorg
all 3 of those values will change as the ball travels down the lane.

I would add "on a well thrown ball". Too often I watch my PAP stare right at me, unchanging, all the way to the pocket. Lol!

~John


This could be (your ball's dynamics) isn't very strong whether it be coverstock or weight block. Also, you may just have too much ball speed for the conditions.
But, then again, it could be a bad drilling. When the pap is "staring at you" the weight block is in motion trying to find itself so it can start tumbling and create that shifting so a fresh part of the ball comes in contact with the lane and gives you hook.
If you're not regularly seeing that, you should get with someone knowledgable. Be persistant...
Bet you leave a few 8-10's? No reason really to have to deal with them.
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/20/11 12:27 AM

Originally Posted By: metguy

This could be (your ball's dynamics) isn't very strong whether it be coverstock or weight block.


lane master terminator - pin under ring finger
lane masters xtreme damage - pin next to ring finger
Roto Grip Cell Pearl - pin above ring finger

Originally Posted By: metguy
you may just have too much ball speed for the conditions.

Yep - for any condition

Originally Posted By: metguy
it could be a bad drilling.


With no thumb can go coast to coast

Originally Posted By: metguy
you should get with someone knowledgable. Be persistant...


Half the coaches & bowlers here have worked with me. I am getting better - just very slowly

Originally Posted By: metguy
Be persistant...


Now that I have covered! I am just working on being persistantly good instead of bad.

Originally Posted By: metguy

Bet you leave a few 8-10's? No reason really to have to deal with them.


More 8-10's instead of 7-10's. I get pin actions that save me a lot of the time.

Will get a Video from back & side view soon.

~ John
Posted by: metguy

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/20/11 03:16 AM

Nice stuff. Definately not the balls your using Lol. Though i still question the drillings because even if you throw 20mph it should still flare even if it doesn't hook up. Either way, good luck..
Posted by: Handful

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/20/11 06:32 AM

Originally Posted By: metguy
Nice stuff. Definately not the balls your using Lol. Though i still question the drillings because even if you throw 20mph it should still flare even if it doesn't hook up. Either way, good luck..


the ball is flairing, you just don't see it. but a piece of tape on the inital pap and you'll see it move of the spot. but having that point of rotation stare at you the entire way down the lane means too much speed for your rev rate. May see some better results with a slower shot.
Posted by: metguy

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/20/11 07:52 AM

LOL, i guess i never thought of a ball flaring as "Unchanging" and when someone says pap thats what i think of (not rotation). I do agree that a slower ball speed is the best answer if everyone is in agreement of what a slower ball speed is.
Posted by: RickatFransProShop

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/20/11 08:36 AM

Generally, an unchanging PAP means too much ball speed. Sounds like the ball is laboring too much to try to change direction, and that's why your PAP doesn't really "move". I'd try moving up a couple feet on your approach, as this will help you slow down. Not only do you have to take smaller steps, but it "can" make you "think" more about your footwork, since taking your normal footsteps would result in you going over the foul line. This can help you keep your timing, and allow you to slow down your ball speed to where you can get it to change direction. Good Luck!

~Cheers~
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 03/20/11 10:21 AM

I can come up the back of the ball and have the PAP pointing at the left wall - not seeing it at all. The PAP looking at me is still from my going to the outside of the ball too soon in the down swing.
Very rarely when I keep my hand & wrist in position & let gravity swing the ball I see my PAP at 55 deg, & up 12 deg.
Watching my PAP is kind of a short cut I use to know a good release.

Posted by: Nimitz87

Re: axis rotation & axis tilt - 01/03/12 06:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Bowling Boy
So, as the Axis Tilt is Increased from 0 towards 90, the Ball will Carry down the lane Further, but it will Break Less in the Backend.

Increasing Axis Tilt is difficult, and just not worth it. imho

Your better off changing Balls if you need to get down the Lane Further.


if you have low axis tilt, say 10 and under playing deeper is much harder, the over/under reaction is EXTREMELY present.

more axis tilt reads the lane easier, and allows you to open the lanes and play deeper.

I started with 3 deg axis tilt, changing my fit and release I have brought it up to 10* looking to be 12-15 deg, I have medium rotation but can change that.

the few degrees higher axis tilt will 100% make it easier for me to play deeper and more forgiving.

Chad