This is worth 1:13 of your time

Posted by: W9JAB

This is worth 1:13 of your time - 04/24/17 09:44 AM

14 pound vs 15 pound vs 16 pound Pin Carry
in slow motion with a ramp

If you haven't seen this it's worth watching.

Also sometimes I think the Bowling center
slips in a caravel pin just for fun! nelson

Posted by: Sodarulz

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/04/17 08:19 PM

Well it looks to me that if you throw a 14, your going to be OK. I still stick with 15-16 for now though.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/04/17 08:50 PM

From a ramp the difference is negligible.

If you add speed, the difference is more obvious. The difference is in pin lift on impact. More weight, more lift. More lift, fewer corners.

If you've ever sawed the 5 and sent the head pin back across the rack to take out the 10, it's pin lift that allows that. The higher the head pin is on the wall, the better chance it will make it all the way back across. Less lift, less distance. With 14, messengers almost always come up short.

On solid pocket hits, 16 pounds will carry 4% better than 15 but 12% better than 14. It's not a pound for pound correlation. As the ball weight approaches the total weight of the pins that are hit on contact, deflection, even on solid hits, begins to rise.
Posted by: Jazlar Von Steich

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/05/17 10:27 AM

I switched to 14lbs this past summer and I had my best season yet this fall/winter. In fact, no previous season was even close. I beat my previous high average in ALL 4 leagues I bowled, and in one I beat it by 8 pins. I had more 700s and 270+ games this season than any previous. No series under 500 for the first time ever.

Gains in other areas certainly overcame any potential pin carry issues. Perhaps on an identical shot, pin carry will suffer slightly as you go down to 14. However, I'm seeing far more messengers with 14 than with 15. I'm able to get more revs and speed on the ball with less effort.

All things equal, then of course the higher weight will help. But how often are all things going to be equal? I'm seeing more and more people switching to 14 around here and they are doing just fine - even at a house that does not have the best carry. These are people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s switching over as well. Not just the older crowd.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/05/17 10:35 AM

I've been using 14 for a few years now and my experience is similar. However, on longer oil, 14 can suffer dramatically worse than 15.
Posted by: Jazlar Von Steich

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/05/17 10:41 AM

I've bowled on long oil a little bit since going to 14, but not much. Just mainly some practice sessions. I will see over the summer when I'll be bowling more sport patterns once again.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/05/17 10:55 AM

The PWPBA Storm Sacramento Open is being held where I bowl. Here's the pattern;

I Shot on this pattern yesterday. If the ball wasn't on the 15 board coming off the pattern, it had no chance of being in the pocket.

If my ball was just slightly right, it would leave a 1-2-4-10, the bucket or deflect and leave the weak 10.

If I was just slightly left, my ball would go right through the nose and wouldn't kick out any corners. So the splits were ugly.

Qualifying begins today after lunch. I plan to go down and watch how the pros play this pattern. A person definitely needs a ball that starts early.
Posted by: goobee

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/05/17 02:10 PM

83Boat69: What do you mean by "pin lift?". Maybe it's because I learned old school bowling, we were told keeping pins down was good, flying pins was bad. Thoughts?
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/05/17 03:06 PM

Semantics. I'm sure we're talking about the same thing.

The goal is to get the pins up high enough to hit other pins in their fattest area, but not so high that they begin to hit less often because they're up around the necks.

If you go to and then to the presentations area, they have a bunch of super slow motion videos of strikes. Some rev-dominant, some speed dominant and some matched.

They also have some showing 14, 15 and 16 pound balls high flush with the same speed.

What becomes apparent is how far off the lane the pins get on initial impact. In these videos, higher is better. They don't have any showing ringing 10's fast 8's or stone 7's which are symptoms the pins may be getting above the fat part of the pins.

What the videos do show is the pin action necessary to carry corners begins to be less effective the lower the pins start out. I read an article that also talks about too little ball speed causing the same problem. The author of the article said ball speeds below 10 MPH begin leaving corners even on good hits.

What you heard is the same thing I heard back in the 60's. Keep the pins down. The difference, in the 60's I was throwing 16 pounds, at 18 MPH at the pins with about 350 RPM's. Today, I throw 14 pounds, at 13 MPH at the pins, with about the same RPM's.

The first thing I noticed when I went from 15 pounds to 14 pounds was I didn't leave as many ringing 10's. On the other side of that coin, I didn't get as many messengers either. Pin carry changes with weight. Love taps with 15 become bottom feeders where the pin goes around the base of the 10, but doesn't have quite enough to reach out of the channel and touch the 10. Same kind of thing on trip-fours. Many that tripped with 15, just get brushed with 14.

My experience might not be typical. I still have my 15 pound equipment and I shoot with it occasionally. While the number of strikes I get aren't that different, how the pins actually carry the strikes are visibly different.

With 16 pounds, I can remember strikes where it appeared the whole rack left the pin deck in front of the ball. I never see that with 14.
Posted by: W9JAB

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/06/17 01:37 PM

On the other side of that coin, I didn't get as many messengers either. Pin carry changes with weight.

While I'm not disagreeing with you, how do you account for the
U.F.O./Helicopter bowlers who use 5-10 lb. balls and get tremendous carry/messengers?

5 pound kid's House ball with 5 holes for fingers.

And in this video you see that any thing left or right of center on the head pin strikes, and a few on the nose did as well, what you would think should have been a split leaves a corner or strikes.

Now I'm not suggesting we all go out and get 10lb. plastic ball and start spinning down the lane, it's interesting how the "spin" or "rotation" affects the pins.
So is there a lesson to be learned by this somehow?
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/06/17 04:51 PM

I think we are talking about the percentage of pocket hits that carry with heavier, faster balls with significant ball motion. Not the exceptions to the rule.

Helicopter bowlers rely on hitting on either side of the head pin and pin action which is different than messenger pins that come from strong ball motion. A 10 pound ball hitting in the middle of the pocket will never get the head pin to bounce of the left sidewall and go back across and carry the corner. However, that headpin could easily take out the bucket left by initial impact :-)

As for tiny kids and low weight balls. Out of every 1,000 hits, how many actually get a strike?

The ball speed, ball weight statistics are accurate. Are there exceptions? Yep! Are they statistically significant? Nope!
Posted by: nord

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/07/17 12:17 AM

It looks like in the video that the 14 pound ball is deflecting back and forth more within the pins as it moves through them and this is causing more pins to mix and hit each other.
The 15 and 16 seem not to deflect as much and just kinda drive through and push the 5 straight back rather than allow it to move left to take out the 8 pin.

For myself I move between 15 and 14 pound balls and I have been comparing the reactions of them to see which works better for me.
My Hardwick rubber ball is actually about 13lbs 13oz. On Poway it is my most striking ball and I bowled my all time high score with it, a 247.

I have two Crow urethane balls, a 15lb and a 14lb. I have used them both at Parkway which is a normal volume house shot.
I actually am feeling the 14lb has better carry, but I am still experimenting to see.

For me though it is much easier to be smooth and accurate with 14lbs than 15lbs. Less stress on the body too.

Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: This is worth 1:13 of your time - 05/07/17 04:37 AM

Everyone needs to decide what works best for them at any point in time. When I was younger, 16 was the only way to go. Later, because of technology, 15 was just as good. Now, I use 14, but on certain conditions, I think 15 would be better. Not because 15 weighs more, but because 15 makes me deliver the ball slower. So, for those shots where I'm sailing 14 through the break-point, 15 slows me just enough. Of course, I have less RPM's, which brings up other issues. I wish I could say their are answers to everything, but they're aren't. It's a constant battle to find out what works and put it to use.