Do you or donít you

Posted by: W9JAB

Do you or donít you - 01/31/17 06:01 PM

seeingstars
When releasing your (strike) ball do you put any twist in to it?

I have seen many videos that say ďmodernĒ release, let the ball roll off your fingers,
lift with the fingers up the back of the ball.
When I do that the ball goes straight. I have tried this with thumb from 12:00 to 3:00.

I can do a ďsuitcaseĒ release but the ball arrives flat.

But if I go from a thumb @ 10:00 to 3:00 fingers coming from 5:00 and then with a little twist over the top of the ball I can get it to hook.

So Iím confused what is the proper way to release the ball? help


JOE
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Do you or donít you - 01/31/17 06:36 PM

Joe, Here's an excellent article on getting your ball to hook:
http://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/why-wont-my-ball-hook-part-three
You might want to read Parts 1 and 2 as well while you're at it.
Lately I've been keeping my hand quite low in my stance while using little pushaway and attempting to keep my backswing to a minimum. I have almost no cupping of the ball (i.e., wrist straight), fingers pointing to the left at about 45 degrees from the index finger and the index finger underneath the ball pointing toward my target (board 9 at the row of dots 7 feet down the lane).
During my swing I'm keeping my hand in the same position throughout the swing. As the ball comes down from the top of the swing around at my shoe my thumb exits the ball and the weight of the ball is on my fingers only. I come through the ball giving it some revolutions at 45 degrees from the direction of the ball toward my target. That's it.
My ball gets out in front of me a little and I can watch the revolutions on the ball by watching the finger inserts and thumb slug revolve around at the ball goes down the lane. Doesn't yours?
I've placed a piece of tape where the PAP is located and have watched how it progresses from being at the back of the ball and then turns from there to the left side of the ball as it migrates down the lane. Nice!
The fingers give the side rotation which is just about 45 degrees from the momentum of the ball has toward its first target. The next major target is the breakpoint down at about 40 feet where the ball encounters lots of friction. Hopefully the ball still has some rotation left when it gets there to make its move toward the pocket. smile
Good luck!
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Do you or donít you - 01/31/17 06:52 PM

Joe, When you get down to the lanes, try Joe Slowinski's drill as shown here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr9lDk848-g&index=3&list=PL067F4774D3519BC8
Note that his index finger is pointed towards the pins, his thumb exits the ball and is pointed towards the left. Once the thumb exits the fingers provide a side rotation of the ball at around 45 degrees from the direction of the ball down the lane. Watch the nice break towards the left side of the lane down on the dry boards. smile
Posted by: champ

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/04/17 11:29 AM

While most pros do, you can still develop a very powerful and dynamic release with no moving of the wrist. And that's good for us amateurs because we don't get in nearly the same amount of repetitions as pros. And since the name of the game is "repeating" its best to keep it simple.

My normal release has my hand locked at a 5 o'clock position behind and under the ball. You don't want your hand on top of the ball with the ball dangling from your fingers; the fingers should be under the equator of the ball and slightly to the right (if you're a right hander.)

Strive for a release like the middle picture. The picture on the left is why so many people come to forums struggling with hook and hitting power.
Posted by: W9JAB

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/04/17 11:38 AM

The problem here is that so many good bowlers are rotten teachers.

I.E. I have watched videos form Duke,Weber, Ray and the like, I feel, someone told them that they can make a few extra bucks if they make a video, but the teaching value of those videos is less than acquitted.

So here I'm asking real bowlers DO YOU PUT ANY TWIST ON THE BALL?
call it what you like "UNDERHAND SPIRAL" "SPIN" "TWIST" what ever?

I see so much of "let it roll off you hand" "lift with the fingers" or even "SNAP" your fingers. but not spin.

May be I'm not asking it right?

Any feed back will be welcome.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/04/17 02:00 PM

Never-ever twist the ball. With the new equipment, it's not necessary. Try to work the inside and up the back at the release point. If possible keep your thumb right of 10:30 - 11.

Whenever you release a ball with the thumb at 9, the time between when the thumb exits and the fingers exit is reduce and you lose leverage. Additionally, the hand in this position is one of the main reasons for your elbow to get away from your body and flyaway right.

Here's the explanation for why;

If your ball has been drilled properly, after your thumb exits the hole, then your middle finger and finally your ring finger will exit theirs in that sequence. This progression by itself will cause axis rotation.

However, sometimes you might want more axis rotation or less axis rotation. This is accomplished by spreading the index finger. With the index finger spread, the release becomes weaker causing the hand to go around the ball easier. The problem is, if its not done moderately, you will create the 9 o'clock position mentioned earlier.

There are dozens of 'release' videos to watch. They all show the fingers in the 7-8 o'clock position prior to the thumb exiting its hole. After that, the fingers come up the back or maybe slightly inside out.

You should read the pros & cons of too little and too much axis rotation. With today's equipment, I recommend too little as opposed to too much.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/04/17 02:09 PM

One other point. The farther left most bowlers move their feet on the approach, the more likely they are to turn over their shots. Its mostly psychological. From deep-inside it seems it will be easy to just airmail a shot into the channel. Throw the same shot from inside as you would from outside. Keep your hand behind the ball. Send as many RPM's and as much speed down the lane. If your hand twists, all that leverage is lost. Finally, don't 'lift' if you can help it. In the past lifting was encouraged. Today, staying relaxed and only imparting RPM's after the thumb exits is preferred.
Posted by: SteveH

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/04/17 03:29 PM

It's certainly key to fixing my game. Keep the hand behind the ball, release closest to your slide foot as you can. At first, it felt very, very weird. What at first felt like a weak release, with your fingers seemingly hanging on for dear life, looking downlane and seeing the ball hook at your downlane target and roll in is priceless. It Felt weak. This was my main problem, Trying to make it hook. That typically ended up with turning the hand and the thumb ending up towards 9, as you say.

I'm going to get back to practicing my release, my timing.

I also understand that the old style Lift, as you say 82, typically meant lifting behind the ball, producing rpm's, but no hook.

A huge part of this process, beyond getting your timing to the line down properly, is flexibility. Getting your right leg to sweep, allowing the right hip to get out of the way, and providing the balance and leverage you need to release that ball just outside your slide foot.

I now totally get the pro saying of "Amateurs play the outside of the ball, pros play the inside of the ball. Now the pros can do all sorts of things. Hinged elbows, hinged wrists, severe cupped and unhinging all this power. But unless you have the strength and seven days a week to work on it. timing and release is most important.

I'm going down tomorrow to do my foul line drills first, so working on release, then timing. Puts the mind in focus on one thing at a time, until muscle memory takes over.
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/04/17 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By: W9JAB
The problem here is that so many good bowlers are rotten teachers.
I.E. I have watched videos form Duke,Weber, Ray and the like, I feel, someone told them that they can make a few extra bucks if they make a video, but the teaching value of those videos is less than acquitted.
So here I'm asking real bowlers DO YOU PUT ANY TWIST ON THE BALL?
call it what you like "UNDERHAND SPIRAL" "SPIN" "TWIST" what ever?
I see so much of "let it roll off you hand" "lift with the fingers" or even "SNAP" your fingers. but not spin.
May be I'm not asking it right?
Any feed back will be welcome.

You're statement of "what ever?" does not apply.
Yes, you essentially roll the ball like an underhanded spiral similar to what is done with a football; no spin or twist. As you release the ball it has forward momentum from your swing and it gets it's side rotation from your fingers (at about a 45 degree rotation or less which depends on how far your middle finger and index finger are separated). Your index finger should be pointed towards the pins, your finger should be under the ball at the point of release, your thumb should have exited the ball and pointed pretty much to the right for a right-handed bowler. The ball should be darn close to your ankle at release as well. If you're able to accomplish this, it will feel as though you're doing nothing to the ball.
IMO Norm Duke's series is excellent and he's a pretty good coach. I'm not familiar with Ray (or do you mean Walter Ray Williams?). Pete Weber is not a coach; however, his technique is wonderful as is Duke's. Walter Ray is a champion, but his technique isn't the best. His results are fantastic.
Also, IMO the fellows who have made the videos are trying to get folks like you and I invested in the game that they love and are willing to share their knowledge with us who likely love the game as well. The coaching I've gotten over the last several years is keeping me in the game and I continue to learn even at this stage in my life. It's been a struggle and I've learned a lot. I've improved my scores using all these fancy balls and trying to use them effectively. It's been a fun trip so far... Good luck Joe!
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/04/17 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: 82Boat69
One other point. The farther left most bowlers move their feet on the approach, the more likely they are to turn over their shots. Its mostly psychological. From deep-inside it seems it will be easy to just airmail a shot into the channel. Throw the same shot from inside as you would from outside. Keep your hand behind the ball. Send as many RPM's and as much speed down the lane. If your hand twists, all that leverage is lost. Finally, don't 'lift' if you can help it. In the past lifting was encouraged. Today, staying relaxed and only imparting RPM's after the thumb exits is preferred.

Hey Boat, This past week I started off standing on board 22 and targeting board 8 at the dots. In game 3 I had to stand on board 29 and was targeting board 12 at the arrows. I'd never had to move that far left before. No problem hitting the target as that's where I generally am rolling it to hit my 10-pins with my spare ball. No issue with hand position or anything; however, I was a little worried if the ball would ever come back. It was a flush hit! Wow! Last shot of the game...
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/04/17 08:39 PM

A lot depends on the oil pattern. Where I shoot, all the deep oil is in the middle and it thins out rapidly outside 10 and is almost non-existent outside 3-4-5. Any shot thrown into that rare oil outside 5 comes back like a billiard bank shot :-)

Our problem isn't getting the ball to recover, but to get the ball to recover with anything still on it. Anyone who expends their rev's too quickly will be disappointed even if they hit the pocket. Longer pins-to-PAP and wider VAL angles work for me. I also go to polished balls versus sanded.

For 2 games the shot is great but when they go they go pretty quick. We also have 8 lanes that always hook more than the other 14. People on 1 - 8 might start on 25 and end the day on 35. People on the lanes farther to the right may only move 5 or less boards all day.

For one group, keeping rev's up and using less aggressive equipment works best why the others have to keep rev's up but master their speed. Out of 66 bowlers 50 and over, we always have a few 900 series for 4 games. Last week we had a 994 with two 279 games. Shot on lanes 3 & 4 which I think are the highest scoring pair.
Posted by: W9JAB

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/06/17 10:05 AM

So what I getting from all the response is to use the "underhand spiral" with the index finger pointing down lane and the little finger close to the ring finger, thumb right of 10:00?
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/06/17 10:25 AM

The short answer is 'sort of'. The analogy of throwing a football underhand would only be correct if the points of that football were pointing left and right. The analogy forgets a modern bowling ball has a weight-block, surface and a lane condition. The whole purpose behind those 3 variables are to relieve the bowler of doing anything excessive with their release.

If the weight-block is positioned correctly at the release, the rest is unnecessary. Too many become enamored with RPM's without matching all those RPM's with their ball speed. For some what I say is heresy, but when throwing modern bowling balls, less is more. I'm sure Belmo's ears are wringing, but most of us, that is 99% of us, are not Belmo. You must do as much as you can, but it must be repeatable. The simpler your delivery, the more repeatable.
Posted by: W9JAB

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/06/17 12:45 PM

weight-block, surface?
is it possible that too much surface will over come the wight-block and cause it not to hook?
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/06/17 02:28 PM

Originally Posted By: W9JAB
So what I getting from all the response is to use the "underhand spiral" with the index finger pointing down lane and the little finger close to the ring finger, thumb right of 10:00?

Take a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5nnDbV0znE

Notice the position of the index finger as each one hand bowler gets the ball to pass the back of their shoe. It's pointing vertically downward. Their thumb is off to the right pointing towards the right hand gutter. Their fingers are underneath the ball similar to how you'd throw a spiral of a football.
I disagree with Boat about the direction of the football. The front tip of the football would be pointing down the lane and the fingers are wrapped underneath it.
Now watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR2kdzL8TS4

Hope this helps...
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/06/17 02:43 PM

The surface has the most effect upon a ball's reaction. If you take the surface down to a low grit finish and toss the ball down the driest boards of the lane or towards them, the ball will tend to lose it's side roll energy that you may have released it with and it's hook will be reduced. Perhaps it will appear not to hook at all.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/06/17 03:20 PM

If you visit the USBC site and go to the specifications area and read their ball motion study, they have 15-20 variables that contribute to ball motion. Ball surface and lane surface are 1 & 2. Of the 100% of ball motion, the weight block contributes maybe 15%.

Modern balls when delivered might start with 30 degrees of axis tilt and 45 degrees of axis rotation. Ball/lane surface friction tries to reduce the axis tilt and axis rotation to zero. It's up to the bowler and their pro to drill a ball to expend all those forces at the right place on the lane pattern with out running out of either until the last few feet.

A ball with a very aggressive surface will hook, but if it's too aggressive, it will expend all the forces too rapidly and the ball will roll-out the rest of the way. It may seem it's not hooking but early on it probably did hook, albeit for a very short time.
Posted by: mmalsed

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/09/17 12:50 PM

Originally Posted By: W9JAB
So what I getting from all the response is to use the "underhand spiral" with the index finger pointing down lane and the little finger close to the ring finger, thumb right of 10:00?


Yes - except that you have to change the image of the underhanded football spiral. Typically, that's holding the back of the football and then twisting the ball as it's released.

Instead, think of throwing the spiral not "straight" but crooked. The ball traveling straight, but oriented diagonally. Your hand would be wrapped around the middle of the ball, not at the end, and you'd release your thumb and let the football roll off your fingers. I'd use a Nerf football just because it is grippier and easier to picture.

As 82 said, the axis of a football spiral is different than a bowling ball roll. So the two are analogous, but not the same.


As to your other question - it is absolutely possible to put a surface on a bowling ball that will keep it from reacting. I put WAY too high of a surface on one of my balls, bowled the USBC back in April, and that sucker went STRAIGHT as an arrow - it MIGHT have moved a board right at the end. 2000 polished (on an IQ Tour Pearl) on the USBC Nats pattern which is long, flat, and unforgiving.

The weight block changes the dynamic of flare and how the ball keeps its rotational direction. More flare means more radical direction change and sharper direction change (in general, right? not counting how much rotation axis is on there, etc.) But if the ball is polished like crazy - it's going to have to wait for traction. No traction, no movement. Think slick tires - TONS of traction when it's dry and sticky. Wet=slide.

And if the lane is slick, that slide won't change. it'll go as long as it can go.

so - all other things being equal, yes, higher polish/finish can overcome the weight block.
Posted by: SteveH

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/13/17 08:36 AM

The underhand football spiral shouldn't be taken too literally. But it's about the only analogy I can think of to get the mind to understand the roll off the fingers once the thumb is out. Once you feel it, it almost feels (to me), like you've dropped the ball early and it won;t end up well. But when you feel your ring finger as the last touch of the ball, look downlane and watch the beauty.

I don't feel this enough, partly because I have an ugly tendency to not get the ball close enough to my slide foot. This takes the ball off target, and many times crossing over occurs.

In practice, I've resorted to taking my approach out of the equation, which I find makes it easier to focus on the release. Many coaches use the no-step, release at the foul line drill to do this. At the very least, it allows you to Feel the right release. Incorporating the proper approach, timing and release into one smooth, and consistent motion, is what makes good bowling so difficult.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/13/17 09:01 AM

If you're having difficulty delivering your ball close to your sliding foot, it's usually caused by sliding under your left shoulder instead of the center of your body. People who do this also have a tendency to fall out of their delivery to the right or sometimes to the left. It's pretty easy to cure once you realize what you're doing. Just moving your slide foot right will cause all the other facets of your delivery to fall into place so you can stay balanced and post up properly shot after shot.
Posted by: SteveH

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/13/17 01:24 PM

Been working on it Boat. Have a bad tendency to turn my slide foot right, which indicates balance and center mass. Have to slow down in practice and focus on that. Also, concentrating on getting the right leg out behind and left helps this.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/13/17 02:49 PM

When I was young, my heels would be hanging off the approach and my slide ended like yours after just 4 steps. Now, I take 5, end up 2 feet short but my slide foot is straight :-)
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/13/17 05:30 PM

As for me I used to line up at the back of the approach, too, when I was in high school with my five step and high back swing. When I came back to the game, I did the same thing. Brought all my bad habits along with me.
Today I've moved just in front of the second line of dots on the Brunswick approach and still take five steps. I've worked on getting my backswing under control and to keep from reverting back to a full roller figure eight swing. It's very hard to do as one gets older.
Went for a practice session today and I did foul line drills and one step drills for the first two games. Next moved to practicing spare shots with my shiny urethane ball. The ball was coming off my hand pretty well today and had a good roll on every shot. Hope this continues... smile
Posted by: djp1080

Re: Do you or donít you - 02/20/17 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: W9JAB
seeingstars
When releasing your (strike) ball do you put any twist in to it?

I have seen many videos that say ďmodernĒ release, let the ball roll off your fingers,
lift with the fingers up the back of the ball.
When I do that the ball goes straight. I have tried this with thumb from 12:00 to 3:00.

I can do a ďsuitcaseĒ release but the ball arrives flat.

But if I go from a thumb @ 10:00 to 3:00 fingers coming from 5:00 and then with a little twist over the top of the ball I can get it to hook.

So Iím confused what is the proper way to release the ball? help

JOE

Joe, Here's an article written by Joe Slowinski. In it he believes that the position of the fingers during the entire swing are key to getting adequate revolutions on a bowling ball just like the elite players do. He also mentions that his backup drill can help one learn the technique and get it ingrained in their head to accomplish it. Here's the link to the download of the article that appeared in Bowling This Month magazine: http://bowlingknowledge.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204

Hope this helps...