All About Rev Rate

Posted by: KahKiat

All About Rev Rate - 06/07/11 10:42 PM

Anatomy of an Elite Release: How to Improve Your Rev Rate: http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinskijune11.pdf

An easier method that
increases your rev rate: http://www.mariacristinasgrosso.it/PDF/articoli/relatori/11_eng.pdf

Strong Finger Position One Key to Creating Revs: http://bowlingknowledge.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=140&Itemid=62









Posted by: KahKiat

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/04/11 09:09 AM

http://www.ehow.com/how_8310605_release-ball-high-revolution-rate.html
Posted by: spectral

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/05/11 05:53 AM

looks easy enough but so hard to do
Posted by: FruitFly

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/05/11 07:11 AM

Originally Posted By: spectral
looks easy enough but so hard to do


Cant count the times I've thought that!
Just some time ago I recieved my first ever magic carpet.
I expected wonders and it is indeed great.
But still my ball flutters all over the place with nothing on it.
I have yet to find a release I'm comfortable with AND thats doable for me.
Posted by: Skeeball

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/06/11 11:35 PM

Originally Posted By: spectral
looks easy enough but so hard to do


Here Here! Easier said than done. For my two cents CoachJim posted recently about letting the ball drop and use gravity. I tried it and once and awhile I have the patience enough to wait for the ball on the downswing. I think this is where the compression part comes in, I may be wrong but it makes a huge difference on the delivery. If you can let your arm just fall and keep your wrist in position I can feel the ball in the fingertips and coming around the ball on release. To me it seems to be working a lot better now, I'm getting the ball into the fingertips much more consistently at the bottom of the swing.

Hope that helps.

PS, here's CoachJim's link:

http://www.bowlingcommunity.com/b/ubbthreads.php/topics/153024/1.html
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/07/11 12:23 AM

its a great article. But for some, they may need a step before this lesson. And I think learning a free arm swing (rather then forced and muscled) and getting the hand behind the ball in a strong/firm position rather then over the top or spinning the ball. There's a need for a lesson before this for most folks, IMO. Because doing what Slowinski talks about is very difficult if you do not have a free arm swing or balance at the line.

Something that will gain revolutions before moving onto this type of lesson is to get lower in the release, have that later timing (waiting for the heel as Slowinski mentions) and having balance at the line (posting the shot). If you do those three things, most people will gain revs. But, IMO, you need to have these things in place before moving onto the more dynamic hand and finger position.

Erin
Posted by: spectral

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/07/11 08:31 AM

I think key is indeed to free up your armswing. When someone tells you to keep your hand behind the ball and fingers below the equator. It all sounds easy and when you conclude you can not keep your fingers below the equator you get desperate and think your wrist is too weak.

However my approach and delivery right now limits my ability to keep my fingers below the equator. My armswing is totally forced and makes it impossible to keep the fingers below the equator and behind the ball.
Posted by: FruitFly

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/07/11 10:44 AM

I am able to keep my fingers below the equator, but since a lot of your revs come from acceleration my mind is set on that. Sadly my mind is not good at it and so I tend to accelerate way to early in my downswing, thus killing the revs.

But I've got another question about revs: When I watch the videos most of the pros "slap" the ball at release. I tried that, but cant seem to do it fast enough. Is there some kind of trick to it? Like "more to the side" or indeed "in a 45 degree angle through the ball"?

Plus: I seem to not have enough holding ability in my fingers, though they are not that weak. My inserts allow me to put my fingers in to the first joint and not an inch further. Not even by force. Is this too tight?

Damn, revs are hard to create if you dont have a proper teacher or gift of nature
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/08/11 03:41 AM

Fruit, from all you have written it sounds that you just "pull the trigger" way to early. YOu would be under the equator if you didn't try to hook the ball so much and so early. You really cannot "pull the trigger" until your hand has just passed your ankle. Anything before that, is too early.

And a lot of this earliness comes from you thinking of this acceleration in your head, IMO. Yes, the hand need to accelerate at the release, but if you concentrate on it, you will turn it too early. Again, you have to wait, wait for it.

Erin
Posted by: DocLogic77

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/08/11 07:07 PM

The key to creating revs is everything being relaxed. Tension is a rev killer. Any muscle in the swing will force your hand either to the side of the ball or above the equator. If you have tension in your hand, you won't get out of the ball properly. I'm not a big guy, nor am I an expert bowler. But, I do have a relaxed swing, and a relaxed hand grip. That is why I can put some stuff on the ball. The relaxed swing, grip and loaded hand position give me all the revs I need.
Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/09/11 09:43 AM

I think the Wes Mallot video is very interesting. One could even say "Fingers below the equator is over-rated", by itself. If you look at Malott, his is right at the equator.

I was talking with a friend of mine (a while back) about theoretically altering the equator of a ball. My agruement was just having your fingers at a position isn't enough to create serious spin or revs, its more of a total picture as far as where you start and where your fingers finially exit the ball and what that distance is. You can put on a brace and set it to cup the ball (and you will create more revs) but cupping the ball then unloading at the release will create even more revs because the distance your fingers stay in contact with the ball is longer.

From a 90 degree angle (looking at the hand position), a cupped hand will sit approximately at 6-7 o'clock and exit the ball at 9 o'clock while unloading will take it a little further to say 11 o'clock. More revs, longer overall distance spent with fingers in contact with the ball. The goal then should be 12 o'clock for maximum revs? No. You need that distance from 11-12 for the last part of the release. That i believe is where "slapping" the ball comes into play. Accellerating your followthrough only helps to maximize this slapping of the ball. Slapping can't be up behind the ball, it must be over the top of it. If you're slapping up behind the ball, then your stealing revs from peter to pay paul and there is no gain in that.

Now back to altering the equator (for the better). Lofting the ball to any degree will never get anyone the revs someone who drives through the ball will get because they have a "Flawed" equator relative to the optimal plane. Any of these video's above will show drive, not loft. Lofting is anything other than optimal (unless we're taking about dropping and thats a whole different problem). Working towards that optimal plane will maximize this area of your game.

Lets not forget working the inside of the ball. Its not only putting your fingers in a stronger position but its allowing your fingers to stay in contact with the ball a longer distance (curve being longer than a straight line from point A to point B) because you're not going in a straight line.

So, to create revs you need a longer distance with as short of a time you spend there as possible while maximizing leverage in all areas.
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/09/11 04:36 PM

Your fingers might be in the ball the same amount of time, but the speed at which the fingers go from under the ball to release gives the ball it's rev rate, slower finger speed lower rev rate faster finger speed higher rev rate. Flexing the wrist as opposed to keeping the ball cupped doesn't increase the time the fingers are in the hole, as much as it increases the speed the fingers go from under the ball to out of the ball. Bending the elbow and the wrist then snapping both straight increases the rev rate even more, this is what makes two handed and no thumb bowlers have high rev rates because they can't keep the ball on their hands unless they also bend the elbow. Snapping everything straight at the end of the release is the key. My swing thought is, "Cup and extend through the bottom of the ball", this keeps everything flowing through my target instead of out or away from it.
Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/10/11 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: CoachJim
My swing thought is, "Cup and extend through the bottom of the ball", this keeps everything flowing through my target instead of out or away from it.


So, you play up behind the ball? And your thumb releasing out of the ball is automatic or do you do something there?

Unfortunately, I'm starting to realize i have huge flaws in my game but "recognition is half a glass worth".
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/10/11 03:37 PM

The thumb is the guidence system. That's why thumbless bowlers have such a hard time being consistent.

It is also easier to generate revs if you have a longer hand span. So those that are span compromised have that against us. But that doesn't mean you are unable to produce revs. Robert Smith does not have a huge hand. But if you look at some of the taller bowlers, Chris Barnes, Mika, Wes Malot, they seem to have a very effortless ability to generate revs, this is because they have long spans in addition to technique.

But its the whip like motion of coming out of the ball that helps generate revs. Arm accelleration through the release. But as has been discussed there's much more then one action that produces revs. You need stability at the line, low release point (deep knee bend), hand position, timing etc......

Erin
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/10/11 05:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Atochabsh
But as has been discussed there's much more then one action that produces revs. You need stability at the line, low release point (deep knee bend), hand position, timing etc......

Erin


Self evaluation:

1) Stability at the line -75%
2) Low release point - 50%
3) Deep knee bend - 25%
4) Hand position - 25%
5) Timing - 75%

= Lots of work to go. ~ John
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/10/11 07:03 PM

PBA Champion Don Genallo had one of if not the longest span ever at over 6 3/4" long and had a fairly low rev rate. He had good timing, deep knee bend, strong hand position, great balance, but no flex to he wrist, he was very stiff.

Chris Warren has one of the shortest spans and has a fairly high rev rate. It all has to do with the speed of the fingers at the release, fast fingers = high rev rate, slow fingers = low rev rate.

More snap/whip motion at the release the faster your fingers will move.

Quote:

So, you play up behind the ball? And your thumb releasing out of the ball is automatic or do you do something there?


If you are having to think about letting the ball go with your thumb, that means you are having to squeeze the thumb to hang onto the ball. Snapping your wrist/elbows/fingers straight snaps your thumb out of the ball and whips your fingers through the ball giving your more revs. If you are having to squeeze the thumb to hang onto the ball, you don't have a chance of being coordinated enough to let go of the ball at the exact time every time to be consistent. Get your grip fixed so you don't have to put a death grip on the ball.
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/10/11 09:30 PM

Originally Posted By: CoachJim
PBA Champion Don Genallo ... had a fairly low rev rate. ....

Revs are just one tool in the bowler's bag of tricks. You have to match speed, revs, ball, the path of the ball, and rotation angles to the lane conditions.
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/11/11 05:03 AM

Quote:
Revs are just one tool in the bowler's bag of tricks. You have to match speed, revs, ball, the path of the ball, and rotation angles to the lane conditions.


I did mention he was a PBA champion didn't I? You don't become a PBA champion without having something going for you even if you are a house hack in a white suit, you must be doing something right. A high rev rate isn't an advantage in bowling, it just makes strikes look more intimidating, low rev rate pba champions out number high rev rate pba champions by a lot for a reason. Reason being it is better to score good than to look good, but more people want to look good, so the way to get there is by flexing the wrist and elbow into the release and snapping it straight, that is all I'm saying.
Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/11/11 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: CoachJim
. Get your grip fixed so you don't have to put a death grip on the ball.



Looks like i'll be heading into the fall season in a slow trot. Taking all pitches out and starting fresh.



Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/11/11 10:39 AM

Originally Posted By: 10PinGaloot
You have to match speed, revs, ball, the path of the ball, and rotation angles to the lane conditions.
As I've said before, "there are many paths to the pocket".

This past weekend, I bought two used roller bags. Along with them came various paraphernalia and 6 balls. None of the 6 balls was strong enough for me. It turns out the owner was 85 years old, and probably had a rev rate in the hundreds on a good day (sheesh, rampant ageism from a 63 yr old!!!).

My point being that he had a wide variety of these things. To me, they all looked the same, but he was able to finesse his shot by equipment change just like anybody with a 450 rpm can change equipment to fit the lane conditions.

My point? You have to adapt to the lane conditions. To do that, you can change any one or two of several variables.

And also, if you're rev-challenged, or speed-challenged, you shouldn't be going out and buying the latest 16# honkin' hooker. It just won't work for you.


BTW - Looks like I'm about to settle on one release (the Chris Barnes release). It can adapt in rev rate, angle, speed, tilt, without any sort of finagling.

PS - How about that? a major announcement as a footnote to a post. Sheesh!
Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/11/11 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: 10PinGaloot
And also, if you're rev-challenged, or speed-challenged, you shouldn't be going out and buying the latest 16# honkin' hooker. It just won't work for you.


How about a "Honkin Hooker" that has a high flare. Was thinking about the Critical Theory in particular. any thoughts?
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/11/11 11:05 PM

Originally Posted By: metguy
Originally Posted By: 10PinGaloot
And also, if you're rev-challenged, or speed-challenged, you shouldn't be going out and buying the latest 16# honkin' hooker. It just won't work for you.

How about a "Honkin Hooker" that has a high flare. Was thinking about the Critical Theory in particular. any thoughts?


rotfl
I find it hard to believe you're rev-challenged, or speed-challenged, so I think you're safe.

I love Roto-Grip, though...

Posted by: Skeeball

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/12/11 02:05 AM

By snapping the elbow, wrist, and fingers at the end of the release does this put a lot of strain on the elbow? I've seen some folks bowl like this and it looks uncomfortable but they do get a heavy roll with rotation.

Can finger speed be increased any other way?

Thanks.
Posted by: FruitFly

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/12/11 03:18 AM

I read a lot about how to get a higher revrate, but these modern releases dont seem to be my thing.
What I'm looking for is a release that has enough revs so that my ball wont get reflected if I do it right. Thats all.
Something like "straighter is greater".
I'm talking Ozio, Voss or Duke here. But I cant seem to find decent footage about them anywhere. Nor descriptions about their releases. (If this seems unfitting regarding this thread to you just PM me if you've got something)
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/12/11 04:37 AM

Quote:
Can finger speed be increased any other way?


Yes, but to a less dynamic extent you can fire your arm through the follow through, but only as your thumb exits the ball in the release, any sooner and you will loft the snot out of the ball and I have said numbers of times here that having your ball come crashing down on the lane is detrimental to most lines of attack.

Norm Duke describes how to do this here in lesson 5:

http://www.nextlevelbowling.com/index.ph...&Itemid=177
Posted by: Skeeball

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/12/11 10:35 PM

Originally Posted By: FruitFly


But I've got another question about revs: When I watch the videos most of the pros "slap" the ball at release. I tried that, but cant seem to do it fast enough. Is there some kind of trick to it? Like "more to the side" or indeed "in a 45 degree angle through the ball"?



Can someone explain what this "slap" is? From what I gather it comes at the end of the snapping type release.

Thanks
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/12/11 11:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Skeeball
Originally Posted By: FruitFly


But I've got another question about revs: When I watch the videos most of the pros "slap" the ball at release. I tried that, but cant seem to do it fast enough. ...


Can someone explain what this "slap" is? From what I gather it comes at the end of the snapping type release.


I call it a top slap, and have previously described as being like when you slap a fellow's face with your glove as a challenge to a duel. What it is, though, is bending of the fingers at the first (and to a lesser extent the second) knuckle moving the hand across the top of the ball and thus imparting spin without lifting up on the ball. It takes much less effort.

After years of trying up to 20 various types of release, I have settled on this release as the only one I'll ever need. I can vary the angle from 0 to 90 degrees, control the revs, and even apply a little bit of axis tilt to it.

Here's the secret - you have three finger knuckles and one wrist. That makes 4 places that can bend and unbend. I've found that if you bend or unbend the wrist, you can then bend the fingers immediately after that (and possibly in a different direction), especially because by that time the ball is under your hand, almost ready to fall off the fingers and the ball is already spinning from the uncupping or unc0cking.

I've found that when I do this, if I cup or c0ck the ball, then I have to uncup or unc0ck before the ball gets to my slide foot, and then slap across the top of the ball by bending my fingers at the first (and to a lesser extent the second) knuckles as the ball is below my hand. If I do it too late, the bending of the fingers can actually make the ball spin backwards, back toward the bowler.

When a lower rev rate is called for, you can skip the cupping or c0cking. If you do neither, then the only spin on the ball is what happens as it falls below your hand. Then you can add a measured amount of spin with your fingers at the last split second (just as it passes the slide foot).

I call it the Chris Barnes release. Watch Chris's hand in the follow-thru and you can see the effect of his top slap.

Posted by: Skeeball

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/13/11 12:40 AM

Originally Posted By: 10PinGaloot
Originally Posted By: Skeeball
Originally Posted By: FruitFly


But I've got another question about revs: When I watch the videos most of the pros "slap" the ball at release. I tried that, but cant seem to do it fast enough. ...


Can someone explain what this "slap" is? From what I gather it comes at the end of the snapping type release.


I call it a top slap, and have previously described as being like when you slap a fellow's face with your glove as a challenge to a duel. What it is, though, is bending of the fingers at the first (and to a lesser extent the second) knuckle moving the hand across the top of the ball and thus imparting spin without lifting up on the ball. It takes much less effort.

After years of trying up to 20 various types of release, I have settled on this release as the only one I'll ever need. I can vary the angle from 0 to 90 degrees, control the revs, and even apply a little bit of axis tilt to it.

Here's the secret - you have three finger knuckles and one wrist. That makes 4 places that can bend and unbend. I've found that if you bend or unbend the wrist, you can then bend the fingers immediately after that (and possibly in a different direction), especially because by that time the ball is under your hand, almost ready to fall off the fingers and the ball is already spinning from the uncupping or unc0cking.

I've found that when I do this, if I cup or c0ck the ball, then I have to uncup or unc0ck before the ball gets to my slide foot, and then slap across the top of the ball by bending my fingers at the first (and to a lesser extent the second) knuckles as the ball is below my hand. If I do it too late, the bending of the fingers can actually make the ball spin backwards, back toward the bowler.

When a lower rev rate is called for, you can skip the cupping or c0cking. If you do neither, then the only spin on the ball is what happens as it falls below your hand. Then you can add a measured amount of spin with your fingers at the last split second (just as it passes the slide foot).

I call it the Chris Barnes release. Watch Chris's hand in the follow-thru and you can see the effect of his top slap.



Thanks much Galoot. It seems like a lot happens in a very short time. So when you slap the ball your hand physically comes over the top of the ball. Will your follow thru end up on the right side of your face? Also, is this all wrist action no forearm at all?

Thanks again.
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/13/11 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Skeeball
Will your follow thru end up on the right side of your face? Also, is this all wrist action no forearm at all?


It's all in the first knuckle of the fingers. If you try to "push" with your arm, then you'll push the ball off its intended trajectory. Arm is for aiming, hand is for spinning.

You can move your wrist in 4 directions plus twist it around an axis which is your arm. Wrist movement, if you do it, has to be done earlier, while the slap is done later. I generally do one then the other. It's conceivable they could overlap a little, which could give some axis tilt, for instance.

I use wrist curls to strengthen the wrist action and a hand squeezer to strengthen the finger knuckle action. Those sterngthen the finger muscles and forearm muscles. As far as bending the elbow, that's not a part of the action. The arm is swingling freely due to gravity and the wrist action is totally disconnected from the swing.

You can practice with a Bocci ball, nerf ball, or even a 12 pounder to get the idea prior to building up the muscles.

In this Chris Barnes video, it doesn't look like he's slapping the ball, but he is. His fingers are feeling the pressure as they come over the top.

Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/14/11 08:10 PM

For the first time, I can actually say i see what your saying. Never really understood it before. Keep posting those videos, we're watching. And thanks for the explanations of what we're looking at.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/15/11 09:33 PM

idea idea idea

I love it when that light bulb lights.
Posted by: KahKiat

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/15/11 09:56 PM

www.tbaq.org.au/docs/coaching/Revcountandmatchingthelane.doc

http://www.bowlingtipsinfo.com/bowling/515-how-to-increase-your-bowling-balls-revolutions-or-revs/

Posted by: Skeeball

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/16/11 12:35 AM

Thanks guys for all the help. I just have to try to put it into practice.
Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/16/11 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By: CoachJim


EVERYTHING you want to know, and more. I watched lesson #4 about 20 times relating it to my 10 pin inconsistancies. I'm gonna need a bigger notebook.....
Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/18/11 09:43 PM




I'm putting together a post, got to see what i can do. If i can't delete it (since its a test post) then kindly disregard it.
Posted by: Skeeball

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/20/11 12:47 AM

It's hard to tell from the video but when does Wes c*ck his wrist ? On the downswing I guess because I don't think he has his wrist cocked at address or during his setup.

thanks
Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/23/11 11:02 PM

I don't think he c0cks his wrist, at all. He turns his hand, he has good leverage, his accelleration is excellant, but nothing fancy with the wrist. He may be breaking his wrist some during his accelleration through the ball, thats about it from what i'm seeing.
Posted by: spillup24

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/24/11 12:01 AM

Wes Mallot definitely c0cks his wrist. He is one of the best at doing it. If you look at the video above his ring finger is almost at 9:00! Stop it at the 11 second mark. Mallott DEFINES wrist C0ck!
Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/24/11 03:24 AM

I was thinking "Cupping", sorry. Didn't mean to mislead anyone there. Most all the higher rev bowlers turn their hand in (or c0ck their wrist) to allow the ball to have momentum going into the release. I wonder if the "Unc0cking" of the wrist at the bottom of the swing is forced or gravity induced?
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: All About Rev Rate - 07/24/11 08:19 AM

Quote:
I wonder if the "Unc0cking" of the wrist at the bottom of the swing is forced or gravity induced?


This is where I can help. Most people don't have the wrist strength to get into this position in the first place, of the ones that do, most don't have the strength to hold the wrist in this position after the thumb exits the all and the wrist uncocks automatically; however, some do possess the wrist strength to hold the wrist in a cocked position through the release, they either have to learn to extend their fingers through the bottom of the ball, this unwraps the wrist after the thumb exits, or they have to trigger it in some way that make sense to them.

If they go through the release with a c0cked wrist, the ball will have way too much axis tilt and spin down the lane, I have only known one bowler who was able to make this work well for him and he could hook the ball as much as Robert Smith, he would struggle on certain lane conditions to the point where he didn't stand a chance, and with modern equipment it wouldn't take much to dry the lanes out to the point where he would struggle, so I think it would be better to learn to uncock your wrist than try to get by with a c0cked release.
Posted by: asato3

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/12/11 08:07 PM

I found a lot of useful stuff in this thread to help my game I can't wait to try some out
Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/12/11 08:26 PM

Originally Posted By: asato3
I found a lot of useful stuff in this thread to help my game I can't wait to try some out


I hear ya. There's so much info on this bowling site it could take years to go through it all. There's 10 years of topics to read and they all have something worth writing down.

I've straightened out my 10 pin game and become more accurate overall with all the credit going to this site and the people on it.

I recommend it to everyone i meet, if you can't find the answer here then it doesn't exist.
Posted by: Vini

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/15/11 06:28 AM

[/quote]

This is where I can help. Most people don't have the wrist strength to get into this position in the first place, of the ones that do, most don't have the strength to hold the wrist in this position after the thumb exits the all and the wrist uncocks automatically; however, some do possess the wrist strength to hold the wrist in a cocked position through the release, they either have to learn to extend their fingers through the bottom of the ball, this unwraps the wrist after the thumb exits, or they have to trigger it in some way that make sense to them.
[/quote]

Coach : You are a Goldmine !
I am one of those who was stupid enough not to extend the fingers. I was missing the right feeling.
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/15/11 09:36 PM

Post a video, I would like to see.
Posted by: Dan300

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/16/11 07:25 AM

Ok, I have a (maybe not so) simple question. What should my release "feel" like? I really have three releases I can employ.

1. I rake up the back of the ball, somewhat similar to WRW.

2. "Let the birdie fly" like PDW.

3. Where it feels like my thumb has become an axis and I'm turning the ball around it.

When I want a higher rev rate, like what is mentioned in the Slowinski article, is it #3 that I should employ?
Posted by: Vini

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/16/11 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By: CoachJim
Post a video, I would like to see.













thnx
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/17/11 05:09 AM

If you stop the videos at the point of release, you will see that the ball is almost a foot above the floor, your hand position looks good, but the ball is a bit high which means it will bounce when it hits the lane.

Try to get lower with your knees if you can, and reach lower through the bottom of the release to help get the ball as low to the floor as you can. Raising up is a form of lofting which comes in handy when the heads are burnt and you need to project the ball down the lane farther, or just shorten it a bit.

Keep up the good work.
Posted by: Vini

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/17/11 02:22 PM

If I would live in your city (under your coaching) most probably I would have been a PBA player by now. Thnx again !
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/17/11 03:06 PM

Let me know if you are ever in the Washington DC area, I will hook you up.
Posted by: ryanfeia

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/17/11 07:16 PM

snoop dogg!
Posted by: Vini

Re: All About Rev Rate - 08/18/11 05:10 PM

Originally Posted By: CoachJim
Let me know if you are ever in the Washington DC area, I will hook you up.


Sure will do Coach !
Posted by: NaSTI

Re: All About Rev Rate - 05/28/12 08:01 AM

So is this the correct order?
1. Wrist cocked, cupped
2. Wrist uncocks
3. Wrist uncups
4. Top slap
5. Fingers follow through the ball.

Now at which point in your swing do you start to uncock? Just before the ball reaches the heel of your slide foot? I wear a Pro-Release and its set to a cupped position. I would be unable to uncup during my release. I can still uncock tho but is there an alternative for me to release with still a cocked, cupped wrist? Or uncocked, cupped release?
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: All About Rev Rate - 05/28/12 09:49 AM

At the bottom of your swing, you uncock, your thumb comes out, and the ball rests on your fingers. then, with a forward motion of your wrist, you recup and the fingers propel the ball forward. The hand comes up to the desired release angle and the fingers impart rotation on the ball.

To do this correctly, your hand has to remain behind the ball and your fingers under the equator of the ball.
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: All About Rev Rate - 05/28/12 10:06 AM

I'm so glad Dennis chimed in, as this shot is the best kept open secret of the pros. You see tons of them doing it, but it's rarely described properly. In this post, I'll be describing my version of it. Others might see it differently...


For me, it's hard to both cock and cup, because there isn't much time to unwind both. The top slap is as Dennis described, although I don't recup the wrist, but rather bend the fingers at the knuckles. If I do recup, it's not a conscious effort; it happens so fast....

For myself, I don't even cup or cock, as the top slap gives me plenty of action. If I were to choose, I would cup/uncup, just as a personal preference. I lose consistency when I do the cock/uncock. Although that's very popular, I just can't do it well.

When I do cup. I do it at the top of my backswing, at the 0 gravity point. It's so much easier, requiring no muscular effort at that point. On the forward downswing, though, it takes a little muscle to maintain the cup until the bottom of the swing. Bowlers with a wrist brace will maintain the cup all the way through the release, and that's fine, but if you do that, you can't top slap. You'll be coming around the side of the ball instead of over the top of the ball. To do the slap shot, you will want to time the uncupping so that it coincides with the vertical bottom of your swing.

I'll cup/uncup more often when using a 90* axis rotation, because it's easier to do with the higher degrees. That brings to mind another point. The motion of the hand around the ball to the starting point for the axis degrees can be done slowly in the bottom half of the backswing, or it can be done during the actual uncupping motion, if you're doing cup/uncup. If done during the release just prior to the slap, then it will add some tilt. If done prior to the release, so that the hand is not rotating during the release, then you'll get 0* tilt. Cock/uncock will also give you tilt for the same reason.

So when I cup, that's the wrist. When I top slap, that's the first and second knuckles of the fingers. that gives my brain a chance to do two things in rapid succession. I think the wrist follows along because the ball's rotation pulls it in that direction (it pulls my arm as well, for that matter).

Probably the weirdest thing about this release is that it doesn't change the motion (speed or trajectory) of the ball at all. My arm is swinging towards the target and my fingers are slapping towards the left side. Consequently the hand/arm are not propelling the ball forward - it's already been set in motion by the swing. Rather the hand is spinning the ball in mid-air as the ball moves forward. This is in controversion (?) to Norm Duke's video suggesting that you accelerate through the bottom of the swing, or drive through the ball at the point of release. Does that make it controversial? Just kidding. I know lots of folks like to drive through the shot, but how can your hand be vertically above the ball and do that? It would seem that that would be a different shot, not the top slap.

An alternative to the top slap, for 0 to 10 degrees axis rotation, would be a slap up the back. Same motion, but you come up the back of the ball. Some might say that's hitting up, but what can I say? It works for me. As with the top slap, you do not want to change the forward motion of the ball when doing a slap up the back. Also, you don't want to lift the ball, but rather spin it. If you find that you're lofting when slapping the back, then you're not finessing the slap enough. This shot is useful mainly for those times when you need to go straight with enhanced forward roll, such as playing the outside line.

PS - As I've noted many times, this is just one shot in my repertoire. A good low rev release comes in handy sometimes, and I am not going to quit trying the waggle (my name for cock/uncock) until I get it right.

PPS - I don't adjust. I choose a place to stand and a target at the arrows and a release and try to make it work. Sometimes frustrating when I am losing to my wife and refuse to go to a proven release, but how else do you learn? A toddler falls many times before he learns to walk.

PPPS - shot 50 points above average for 2 games in a row using this shot yesterday (first one was slap up the back, second game was top slap). Hoping that becomes permanent....

PPPPS - can you tell this is my favorite subject? I spent 49 minutes on this one post.



Posted by: metguy

Re: All About Rev Rate - 05/28/12 01:46 PM

Originally Posted By: 10PinGaloot

When I do cup. I do it at the top of my backswing, at the 0 gravity point. It's so much easier, requiring no muscular effort at that point. On the forward downswing, though, it takes a little muscle to maintain the cup until the bottom of the swing.



I know zero gravity is zero but is this any harder if your timing is a little late or early? For those who have timing issues, and struggling to execute this, is it absolutely essential that the timing be pretty spot on?
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: All About Rev Rate - 05/28/12 07:26 PM

I've gone through 8 years of trying out various releases. I would say this is not a beginner's shot. The grip has to be perfect, and it has to be tighter for this shot than, say, a stroker.

I haven't noticed a timing issue with the cupping. I have no idea if my timing is early or late. It just seems to happen. Actually, my feet seem to somehow be on a different controller than my arm. I have a long slide. Maybe that helps to even out the timing some.

I can see how late timing would tug on the ball to start coming down. Maybe I don't have late timing.

What I have noticed is that the uncupping has to be timed right. I haven't accomplished that too well with other than very high axis rotation. I'm thinking that for 0-45* axis rotation with the cup/uncup, a forward pitch might be necessary to keep the ball on the hand until the right point in the swing.
I'm not going to try that, though, since the non-cupped release works well enough for me at this point in my learning curve.

The slap itself has to be timed precisely, or you'll end up hitting 3-6 instead of 1-3.
Posted by: B-Hammer

Re: All About Rev Rate - 05/29/12 01:10 AM

Originally Posted By: NaSTI
So is this the correct order?
1. Wrist cocked, cupped
2. Wrist uncocks
3. Wrist uncups
4. Top slap
5. Fingers follow through the ball.
Now at which point in your swing do you start to uncock? Just before the ball reaches the heel of your slide foot? I wear a Pro-Release and its set to a cupped position. I would be unable to uncup during my release. I can still uncock tho but is there an alternative for me to release with still a cocked, cupped wrist? Or uncocked, cupped release?




Answers a lot of your questions.

One thing to note, it's hard to apply a lot of the "modern release" techniques with the gadget style brace on. Like you said you can't cup and un-cup. You can still do a scroggins style of release which is still a good one, it's just going to be real hard to do a Barnes style of release with it on.
Posted by: NaSTI

Re: All About Rev Rate - 05/29/12 04:15 AM

Ooh pls describe the Mike Scroggins release B.
Posted by: VFF57

Re: All About Rev Rate - 05/29/12 01:34 PM

Quote:
I know zero gravity is zero but is this any harder if your timing is a little late or early? For those who have timing issues, and struggling to execute this, is it absolutely essential that the timing be pretty spot on?


Early timing can be a rev killer. The ball comes off the hand before good leverage or any of what was discussed here can be established. Spot on or even slightly late is needed because I think the foundation to good revs is the leverage/set-up time.

I've been struggling with sporadic early timing this past year. Nothing worse than having a ball come off your hand with nothing on it with the result being a flat hit. When my timing is slightly late which I prefer, I'm usually releasing the ball with some revs on it.
Posted by: Vini

Re: All About Rev Rate - 05/30/12 05:24 AM

A tip that has worked for me:

In practice, just before releasing the ball I always look at my hand. There is a huge difference between what you "feel" you hand is doing and what is actually doing.
Posted by: NaSTI

Re: All About Rev Rate - 05/30/12 05:53 AM

Ok so Ive been trying so many different releases this past week, when I bowled league last night, it totally messed up my game. Shot my worst series yet and couldnt even go back to my "regular" release before trying all these new ones. Bowled 56 pins under my avg for a 583.

Now I feel like giving up on this "Top slap" since it totally messed up my game. Im not sure I can go back to my old release cuz it doesnt feel right anymore. Sigh...back to the drawing boards..aargh
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: All About Rev Rate - 06/01/12 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: NaSTI
Ok so Ive been trying so many different releases this past week, when I bowled league last night, it totally messed up my game. ...aargh

I sympathize. But realize that it's not an easy release. I've been working on this shot for 2-plus years, and that's after developing about 20 other releases. So it's not one you just pick up the ball and throw without some preceding experience with movement of the hand around the 3 axes while releasing a ball.

I just this past week put the last piece on the puzzle, which for me was not accelerating the swing during the release. That's after 2 years. Maybe I'm a slow learner. It makes me appreciate the abilities of pro bowlers and all those youngsters who string strikes with ease.

Also, fit is important - thumb pitch, finger grips, span - because the fingers (for the shot I call top slap) are literally vertical, the thumb is out, the ball is falling off the fingers, while the slap is executed (this being different than the "driving through the ball" or coming up the back top quadrant of the sphere which is done by many, including for instance my idol Chris Barnes).
(and BTW - I use that shot too when applicable, because it works better for low axes of rotation..)

BTW - this is funny, although you might not find it so - I seem to have gone from sub-200 performance to about a 200 the same week that your performance went from above 200 to below 200. Let's hope my change is permanent and yours is temporary!
Posted by: NaSTI

Re: All About Rev Rate - 06/01/12 07:57 PM

@10pinGaloot, thanks for the kind words sir. It is an extremely difficult shot,which I agree can take years to master. I tried taking short cuts and practiced it a week, and continued to do so during league. Ahh bad judgement on my part. I am limited and might have to modify it in some way due to the wrist support that I wear. My normal "A" release is from the stance, cupped and cocked to the point of release, cupped and uncocked. This has been my release for years until I stumbled upon this thread.

On another note, went back to my regular "A" release after a failed "top slap" release and shot 883 for 4 games and 1086 in 5. I will however not give up on the Top Slap but I must find a way to tweak it to my style since I am using a Pro Release. Goodluck to you as well and hope your 200 games are indeed permanent.