Playing with video Shutter Speed

Posted by: ijohn83

Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/08/08 05:20 PM

I was practicing today and thought I would play with the Video shutter speed. As far as I can tell faster shutters only make the picture darker, does not slow motion down on play back.



I feel like I am bowling better and my scores are up, but when I watch my Video play back I don't think there is much improvement. I feel like I am "inside" the ball leading with ring/pinky finger and under the ball. Looking at the Video and I'm not under or inside! Waiting for the light bulb moment - even if it’s only 15 watts!

~ John
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/08/08 05:40 PM

Changing to a faster shutter speed takes the same number of frames per second, but you will get crisper shots each frame. It is helpful when stepping through video, or when slowing it down. You should see a difference if you play it through at 1/4 or 1/8 speed. If you can change to a higher fps recording mode, that is good as well. With these, you want to try to get the light settings (ISO, F stop) to let in as much light as possible, especially because bowling places (at least around here) tend to be under-lit.
Posted by: Brian Pickell

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/08/08 05:44 PM

Shutter speed has nothing to do with frame rate. An increased shutter speed is good to keep high speed objects from from blurring. What you want in or to be able to do slow motion is a high speed camera that allows for 100 + frames per second.

edit: cgeorge beat me to it.
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/09/08 08:57 AM

So I guess my question should be: Does my Sony DCR-TRV900 Camcorder have a 100+ frames per second feature?

Or can/would howiegroove pick one of my releases and show it to me super slow-mo?

Another not so smart question is: When I take my Camcorder to the computer to upload a Video, I get to the part where the program asks me to drag & drop to the story board. (Windows XP)
I pull only the shots to the story board I want to post and save it. But when I go to attach the file, the only file that will work is the entire Video file I put on the computer (not just the story board shots).
If someone would lead me in the correct direction everyone could be spared 8 min. of bowling shots from me every time I post.

Thanks and double thanks in advance,

~ John
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/09/08 09:09 AM

It looks like your camera does not support shooting at >30fps. Some digital cams will do that, but according to the article I read, you need a lot of $$ before a tape camcorder will do that sort of thing.

That said, it looks like if you zoom all the way out, set the f-stop as low as possible (1.8? 1.6?) and possible add +6 to +12 dB gain, you should be able to take good fast-shutter-speed video.

When you plug it in, save the whole movie to your computer, then open up Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> Entertainment? -> Windows Movie Maker. Drag the video into that, then drag it down to the the timeline below. You can cut between shots with Ctrl+L, or maybe Ctrl+K, and then drag the edges of the resulting clip to remove excess on each side. You can also drag transitions (cuts or simple fades preferred, by me at least), and add effects, such as slow-motion. You can also add multiple effects to a single clip, so you could add 4 slow-motion effects for a total of 1/16 speed playback. If you want to add the same effect to several clips, I'd recommend adding it to them before you slice them up.

That's your 3 minute WMM crash course smile
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/09/08 09:12 AM

Oh, when you're done, you have to go to file -> Save Movie.. (or something similar) If it's just going to youtube, one of the 320x240 options is fine - if you're keeping it for yourself, and the source video is higher resolution, I'd save it with the highest quality you can. Youtube recently lifted the limits on upload file size, so you can upload big movies now (though I think the 10 minute limit is still there)
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/09/08 09:20 AM

The manual is online here:

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/DCRTRV900.pdf

manual stuff starts at page 44. Shutter speed should probably be at least 1/100, 1/200 if you can. First light-gaining adjustment would be f-stop. Then gain.

It looks like you also have some AE modes that could be useful.

page 54:
Shutter speed priority or Sport lesson mode would probably be good. Again, in these (and any) modes, you will be able to get more light if you are zoomed all the way out.
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/09/08 09:29 AM

More post count padding:

If you are doing lots of manual stuff, you may not want to rely on the auto-focus. Set something easily focusable at the foul line, and manually focus on that object. Setting your ball there could work - it's what I use when I need to MF a shot.
Posted by: howiegroove

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/09/08 09:59 AM

Originally Posted By: ijohn83
Or can/would howiegroove pick one of my releases and show it to me super slow-mo?


Send me the video and I will be more than happy to do a super slo mo for you. Just tell me how slow you want it(ie. 1/5 speed, 1/4 speed, 1/10 speed.)
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/09/08 07:22 PM

Thanks Cgeorg. The file -> Save movie was what I was missing. I was using the regular save & saving the whole down load over & over.

Howiegroove thanks. I'll try to send you the clip. The speed you did on the super slow-mo post was great.
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/09/08 07:53 PM

Hi Howiegroove,

Here is the clip I would like slowed down.



Do I need your email to get it to you or can you pick it off Google Video?

My email is [email protected]

~ John
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/10/08 06:42 PM

bump
Posted by: Lefty

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/10/08 08:39 PM

Without slowing the video down, you can still see how early you're turning the ball.

The first image shows your hand on the side of the ball when you're about half way through your down swing. The second image shows that your hand is on top of the ball and around the side of it as you're approaching the release point. Your want your fingers closer to where I placed the two yellow dots.

Posted by: howiegroove

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/10/08 09:12 PM

I am going to slow it down for you in a few minutes. I will have it tonight for you john.
Posted by: TheDemolitionMan

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/10/08 09:25 PM

I'm not very camera savvy but I might be able to help a little with the bowling issues.

It looks like your are turnign the ball early for one. It looks like you are having timing issues. It looks like you are getting to the line before the ball. One thing that definatly rears its ugly head is the lack of use of your trail leg. You need to get it out of the way it's affecting your timing and shot. It will also allow you to balance, sprouse up your timing and get a bit deeper knee bend. And if you don't think it's important, sit down in a computer chair with your ball in your hand and swing it. This should show you how important your trail leg is. It looks like you are also trying to use your balance arm but you really aren't. Do you like that the only action required to throw a bowling ball weel takes place on one side?

Lastly, it looks like you muscling your swing. I'm basing that off of your relatively slow steps and the fact that you are pulling the bowl down in your pushaway and you're stopping it on the backswing.
Posted by: howiegroove

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/10/08 10:15 PM

Hey John,

Here is the Super Slowmo video I promised. It has been slowed down to 1/4 speed. If you want it any slower let me know. Hope this helps and all the best.


Posted by: spr3wr

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/10/08 10:47 PM

john,
i agree with the slide leg getting out of the way. But, the ball is getting to the foul line before you finish your slide.
It looks like your back swing could be higher ,getting your backswing higher will delay when the ball get to the release point and you should be able to get your trail leg out of the way.
read this http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip33.htm

4.) Cutting off the backswing: A lot of bowlers unknowingly cut off their backswings. This means that they stop the ball from reaching its full height in the backswing. Bowlers subconsciously think they have to “throw” the ball. They get in a hurry and cut off the backswing in order to “throw” it forward. It is far better to allow the ball to reach its full height in the backswing and allow gravity to turn it around and pull it back down toward the earth and the lane.

A good way to test to see if your backswing can go higher ,or if it needs to, is to have a friend stand beside you as you bowl and note how high your backswing goes. If your backswing does not go at least as high as your head, try to raise it. Standing still doing test swings have your friend hold his hand palm side down about 1 foot higher than your normal backswing height and see if you can “will” the ball to go up and hit the hand. Most people can raise their backswings using this method with no additional effort on their part. If you apply numbers 1-3 to your armswing, the task will become even easier. Once you can hit your friend’s hand when you are standing still, have him walk along beside you as you bowl and hit his hand again. It may seem like it takes forever for that ball to go up there and hit that hand, but this is just because you are used to stopping the ball short and forcing it.


Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/11/08 02:07 AM

Awesome on the slow-motion Video! Thanks again! It continues to amaze me the difference of what I am actually doing compared to what I think I am doing.

1) Under & inside has been my mantra - but I am neither.

2) Don't muscle my swing or turn early.

3) Early timing bad.

4) Use my balance arm & trail leg.

(At least sliding to my target seems to have stuck.)

I am far from having game yet, but my scores are up and I am not up against any walls of ever increasing accuracy for improvement.

I am still having great fun.

Thanks to all,

~ John
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/11/08 07:58 PM

Today’s (09-11-08) practice with one step drill.



1) That one step drill sure shows how controlled my swing is.
Should I just keep on doing the drill to loosen up my swing? 2) It also shows how early I turn my wrist.
3) Balance & trail leg seem to be a little better.
4) Keeping inside & under the ball seems to be real hard for me.
I almost need to review the tape after each shot to convince my brain I am not inside the ball.

~ John
Posted by: Lefty

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/11/08 08:35 PM

What makes staying behind the ball hard is when you try and force your arm through the ball. Look at your practice swing. Where was your hand? Right behind the ball. You need to do exactly that when you throw the ball. Really... nothing different at all. You're not supposed to pull the ball through.

Just execute that practice swing, take your step and let the ball come off your hand. You really don't have to do anything else.
Posted by: howiegroove

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/11/08 10:10 PM

Hey John, you need to do whatever you do to make it so that there is more light on your camera. Its hard to see when its dark.
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/11/08 11:23 PM

Thanks for pointing that out Lefty. I guess it is possible for me. I will try again Saturday. Sure wish I could afford a good coach real time while practicing. Thanks all for the patient instruction - I'm really not that much of an idiot.

howiegroove - My shutter was on manual at 1000. I'll back it off some to brighten up the picture. I'm I gaining anything with the faster shutter, or should I just put it back to 30?
Posted by: howiegroove

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/11/08 11:29 PM

put it back to the original spot. Shutter speed is strictly for pictures and not movies. You use a faster shutter speed for when you are taking pictures with moving objects so an individual picture doesnt blur. In this case, the picture is a continuous movie and shutter speed doesnt play a factor.
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/12/08 09:08 AM

Shutter speed does still play a factor. You may not need 1/1000 - try 1/500. Even though it is a movie, if you are trying to slow down a release, it happens so fast that you really do need a quick shutter speed if you want to see individual hand positions.

ijohn: Try using that Sport lesson review mode. Somewhere around page 54 here: http://www.docs.sony.com/release/DCRTRV900.pdf
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/12/08 09:25 AM

Morning cgeorg,

I think that setting has a picture of a golf swing, but does not have shutter speed. Saturday I'll try it.

~ john
Posted by: Lefty

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/12/08 09:26 AM

1/500 should be OK. As a general rule of thumb for sport photography, you want 1/400 or higher to stop action. If you go lower than that, your frames will be more blurred.
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/12/08 10:05 AM

ijohn, that setting should tell the camera to take faster shutter-speed shots, and it should handle getting enough light (as long as there is enough available). It's basically just giving the camera a hint that you want crisper footage.
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/13/08 06:24 PM

Well after looking at today’s Video (Saturday) I'm not going to waste anyone’s time to post them. I am still not inside the ball.

Next time out I think I am going to throw a few "back up" balls just to look at my hand position. It does look like my trail leg is coming into play more often than not since doing that one step drill.

~John

P.S. It looks like 1/500 shutter speed is going to be good.
Posted by: Lefty

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/13/08 07:59 PM

Honestly, Move your arm exactly like you did for those practice swings. The reason you go around is because you're using your arm muscles to try and pull the ball through. You can throw very good shots without ever using your arm muscles, just like you do in your parctice swing.

When you set up, put the weight of the ball in your off hand (your left). Now make sure that your hand, arm and shoulder are completely relaxed. Now move the ball with your left hand and left it fall into the swing. Now make sure you keep your arm hand and shoulder completely relaxed. It will feel weird, but do not engage these muscles at all. You will more than likely gain ball speed and ball reaction, but you have to keep your arm completely relaxed and not use your arm muscles.

Posted by: CoachJim

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/13/08 09:42 PM

Quote:
Next time out I think I am going to throw a few "back up" balls just to look at my hand position. It does look like my trail leg is coming into play more often than not since doing that one step drill.


John, just make sure that you are keeping your hand to the inside of the ball and not in the handshake position to throw that back up ball. The point of the drill is not to actually throw a back up ball, but to keep your hand to the inside of the ball through to the release. Like Lefty said just throw it like you do in your practice swing. You turn it when you are letting the ball go because your brain is telling your wrist and hand to do something to the ball to make it hook, STOP TRYING TO HOOK THE BALL. Trying to hook the ball is killing your game and killing the hook as well.

Next time you shoot a video, I would like to see you hold the ball until your left foot starts on your third step instead of starting the ball with your second step with the right foot. You don't have a big huge push away which is good, so you can start the ball a step later and this should help get your right hip out of the way on the back swing and help you get in a release position before the ball passes your right hip on the release.
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Playing with video Shutter Speed - 09/15/08 07:08 PM

One shot down loaded to the computer before battery went dead. Will post balance latter.



~ John