Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli

Posted by: nord

Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 02:18 AM

I just saw Ryan in the final.
Sorry to say it, but that kid is Juicing.
He looks like he has put on about 25 pounds of pure muscle since last year and his bowling arm is ridiculously larger than his non bowling arm.
Those are juicing effects.
Seen it in too many other juicing athletes.
It is sad he has chosen to take this path.
Perhaps I am wrong and he maybe just really works out a lot and never trains his non bowling arm, but really works out his face since that is now heavily muscled too.

What are the rules in bowling on Juicing?
Or maybe there are none.
Posted by: B-Hammer

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 02:30 AM



What an odd thing to bring up ... I dunno he just looks like he's heavier, not necessarily more ripped. Considering his age 10 - 15 lbs of muscle and 10 - 15 lbs of fat wouldn't be hard to do over a 2 - 3 year span and would make him look much more filled out. Also he muscles the snot out of the ball, meaning he's sort of doing a curl on every throw. Not really a free swing.

Doubt there is any drug testing on the PBA tour or in any tournament.
Posted by: nord

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 03:01 AM

Here is a before and after pic.
Left pic is 2011 and right pic is today.
Posted by: nord

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 03:06 AM

One more from the side, this kid is now huge!
Those are all muscles, not fat.
Look at those hams and glutes.
His back is thick and his neck very thick.
Juice...
Posted by: Joe Bowler

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 09:46 AM

Who knows for sure why Ryan Ciminelli's left arm is larger than his right arm? It seems there are any number of explanations, including a possible genetic predisposition. Is there any doubt that Michael Phelps had a genetic advantage with a body shaped like a surfboard, and hands and feet like flippers when he competed in Olympic swimming? In my opinion, Ryan Ciminelli, like any other athlete in the spotlight, deserves the benefit of the doubt concerning drug use unless proven otherwise.

My theory is his left arm started to grow with the switch to rolling DV8's "damn good" equipment. Now, Ryan "Hellboy" Ciminelli has the "Left Hand of Doom". grin
Posted by: champ

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 11:03 AM

I'm surprised this isn't a topic that gets more discussion. Perhaps its because we all tell ourselves that muscles aren't necessary in bowling. But do we really believe that at the professional level, more muscle mass won't make a great bowler an elite bowler?

I'm not making any accusations, but is it really all that hard to believe that a young talent like Cimineli, who everyone said would win and win on tour but hasn't yet fulfilled that destiny, might be intrigued to turn to something synthetic to give himself an edge? Doesn't seem that far fetched to me.

Look at baseball's home run heroes of decades past. Babe Ruth was certainly not a fit individual. Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris were fit, but neither were "muscle men" (not to mention Mantle was a drunk, and was known to play hung-over.) I have studied coaching material from the 70s, and they used to teach hitters that the art of the home run was pure technique and the ability to read the pitcher; muscles supposedly had little to do with it.

Then came the 90s and suddenly guys who look like Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds are the ones holding the records.

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there are a few tour players using PEDs in hopes of gaining an edge.
Posted by: nord

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 11:15 AM

Let me just say that if he is hitting the gym hard and pumping a lot of iron to get buff and doing this naturally I am 100% behind him and commend him for his effort.

But bowling is not about muscles per say, it is about split second timing and accuracy.

Look at little Pete Webber, a buck 30 sopping wet, 50+ years old yet in the top 5 in most of these tournaments.

He is not a monster, he is an artist.

And that is bowling, the ability to paint the lane with a bowling ball brush using the oil just right to create a winning painting.
Posted by: champ

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 02:01 PM

Originally Posted By: nord
Look at little Pete Webber, a buck 30 sopping wet, 50+ years old yet in the top 5 in most of these tournaments.


But let's add to the discussion, by questioning the reasoning above. For generations we've been telling ourselves that you don't need muscles to be a good bowler. And its true. BUT...would a good bowler with more muscle be a better bowler? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Pete Weber would be better, or maybe his style would be different if he had more muscle and he wouldn't be nearly as good. I don't know the answer. No one does. But I think we really need to consider that today's game is a power game, and the pure finesse strokers that rise to the top are in the minority these days. Would a great bowler who needs an edge NOT benefit from taking PEDs? I don't think anyone can argue that; not in today's game where carry is HUGE, and power is a large factor of carry.
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 03:47 PM

Not only the muscle but you also have to consider that some athletes take PED's simply to extend their careers, come back from injuries faster, etc.

There are a lot of factors that could make players consider them, but I have never really heard anything about the PBA actually testing for them.

I can tell you at the Regional level I have never once heard of a player being tested so I doubt the National level is any different.
Posted by: VFF57

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 06:57 PM

Quote:
Who knows for sure why Ryan Ciminelli's left arm is larger than his right arm?


That's a result of using balls with asymmetrical cores... smile


No muscles required for experience, strategy and confidence which is what won that game for Chris Barnes.
Posted by: 56bird

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/11/13 10:21 PM

Bro. Bro. Bro.

Posted by: VFF57

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/12/13 07:50 AM

lol....I like to toss engine blocks around my yard for fun.
Posted by: 56bird

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/12/13 08:59 AM

Originally Posted By: VFF57
lol....I like to toss engine blocks around my yard for fun.


Sweet LOL... btw I was just responding in order, always wanted to use that meme somewhere. Certainly wasn't directed at you sir or anyone in particular smile

I always noticed Ryan's arms were way out of balance, from the first time I saw him bowl on TV or video. I do remember "filling out" in a similar fashion in my early 20's, granted neither of my arms ever looked like Ryan's left but I went from 170 at the age of 21 to 252 by 29... was probably 225 at 25 so I'd just say... speculating is one thing, but outright accusing someone of juicing with no evidence but your eyes... well that's a fairly serious accusation.
Posted by: VFF57

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/12/13 09:59 AM

No problem Rick I replied because it gave me a laugh this morning.


Muscle power is a nice to have but as a bowler I think agility, motor skills, etc. are more important physical attributes rather than brute force (a strong wrist is a +). Having good muscle tone should help with repeatability, longevity and injury prevention. A good example of this are guys like Pete Weber and Norm Duke who look like they could blow away in a wind storm but they kill the lanes.
Posted by: Fin09

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/13/13 05:49 PM

Take a look at Rafael Nadal- his left arm is a lot bigger than his right. Most of the top tennis players have imbalances when it comes to their dominant v non-dominant arms. This is not unusual.
Ryan is young enough that he can put on a good 15-20 lbs of muscle in a year without the aid of anything chemical. From the time I turned 16, and started to lift, to the time I turned 19, I put on 30 pounds of muscle, and never even looked at a needle. His face is a lot fuller, which tells me he's eating a lot more, working out heavy, and not doing a ton of cardio.
And for those of you who want to compare him to little PDW, a power player like Ryan is always going to look for ways to increase his power, and short of throwing it two handed, hitting the gym is the best way I know how. Having agility and motor skills are nice, and are the foundation of a bowler's game, but when you can add brute force to your existing gifts, you can be dangerous.
Good for him- when Tiger hit the PGA tour, and his arms were starting to stretch the sleeves of his shirt, more and more guys followed him to the gym to keep up with him.
WITH ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL, a good big man will almost always beat a good small man. That holds true in just about every sport there is. Unfortunately, all other factors are never equal, especially in bowling. Being in good physical condition, which includes being stronger, is definitely an advantage in bowling, though. There are a lot more Chris Barnes body types than Dale Trabers at the top of the money list.
Posted by: Joe Bowler

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/14/13 09:20 AM

Quote:
WITH ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL, a good big man will almost always beat a good small man. That holds true in just about every sport there is.

Gotta disagree. Unless we are talking about basketball, where there are obvious advantages to being taller, it is not usually size that gives the bigger man an advantage in sports. It is strength. And, it is very possible for the smaller man to be the stronger man. One example of a sport where being smaller (and stronger) is an advantage is judo (or any form of grappling), thanks to a lower center of gravity. In bowling, it's a mix. The larger man has a possible advantage with a higher backswing and faster ball speed. The smaller man has a possible advantage with creating leverage getting under the ball, creating more revolutions. As with any athletic endeavor, the defining characteristics of champions are their unique combination of strength, speed, agility, etc., not necessarily size. In the ultimate sport, which is war, survival favors the smaller target.
Posted by: Fin09

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/16/13 11:07 PM

My point was that the bigger man is the stronger man, and sports where strength gives you an advantage are almost always won by the stronger man. There will always be exceptions, but we're participating in a sport where averages are computed over a course of 100+ games.. Remember, too, the all other things being equal caveat, which is technique, skill, proficiency, determination, and hard work.
I like being the stronger man, and I am more often than not.
Posted by: nord

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/17/13 02:45 AM

Just finished watching Chameleon.
Ryan is amazing.
I have never seen such power and roll on a ball.
You can just see that thing revving down the lane and you know the pins will die!
He is Hellboy with that crazy arm.
He is so powerful now the other players looked like kids by comparison.
Posted by: 56bird

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/18/13 12:16 PM

What I find kind of amusing about this discussion is, I'm always struggling to get the muscle OUT of my game. Don't get me wrong, I could stand a lot more fitness, but that's more about being able to hold my position at the line better (notice how Ryan was posting his shots better than anyone we've seen on TV since Belmo had that hot streak?)

I generate a lot more power when I use a lot less muscle effort. Not everybody bowls this way though and that's fine.
Posted by: VFF57

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/18/13 06:24 PM

Quote:
What I find kind of amusing about this discussion is, I'm always struggling to get the muscle OUT of my game.


Same here.


If muscle and power are important then at what point should it be applied during a gravity driven swing?

Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/18/13 10:42 PM

The advice goes, a free swing with a strong release. The release isn't strong if its muscle free, its weak and your hand is in a bad position.

There should be some acceleration at the completion of the release and into the follow through.

The biggest issue is that this is very hard. Its not easy to say, "lets not use any muscle and then at x point be powerful".
Posted by: rrb6699 (RayRay)

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/18/13 10:51 PM

I toy with using muscle or not all the time. all i can say is sometimes i do either or. there are days when i think i got it figured out. i'm using a release i can remember and things seem simple. then go out and try a nice and loose swing but my speed is too slow or i cannot get the same feel as i did just the day before. then i find out it is more comfortable to hold the ball differently than i did just the day before. so what do you do???

about the only thing i have found is the ball must be increasing in speed at release to keep the direction of launch angle. if i need a ball to roll with more oil i have a loose armswing. if i need to delay the roll with skid, i have to muscle the ball more and follow thru strong. but either way i have to make sure my ball speed is increasing at release.

so maybe it doesn't matter so much. what do you think?

RR
Posted by: VFF57

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/19/13 07:57 AM

A good release for me is a free swing and good leverage at the line courtesy of proper timing. I like my timing to be just a bit late for setting up with the ball and projecting it out on the lane. The release projection comes from the momentum of the swing and some accelerated push through. The muscle assistance turns on at the bottom of the swing for the wrist and acceleration. When I start getting too aggressive with the release push through that's when the muscle starts creeping into the entire swing. I start controlling the ball and there goes the timing.
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/19/13 08:43 AM

VFF, that is exactly how it should be.

That is the saying exactly, a free swing with a strong release.

The release simply cannot be strong without acceleration. The issue arises when the acceleration starts early and now the swing is muscled and pulled through.
Posted by: VFF57

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/20/13 08:20 AM

Quote:
VFF, that is exactly how it should be


Good sanity check - thanks.


I guess a little more power during the acceleration phase (if I had it) wouldn't hurt. smile
Posted by: Joe Bowler

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/23/13 09:05 AM

There are good health reasons to want to be fit and strong.

But, from a stroker's perspective, the goal in bowling is not to have the strongest release, just a strong enough release. There are no extra points for amount of revolutions, boards crossed, miles per hour, or excessive entry angle. Since bowling is a sport that requires both power and precision, there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to generating power.

Remember the more moving parts, the more energy expended, the greater the challenge repeating shots, and the greater risk of injury. In my own experience, I know that I can switch from 4 to 5 steps, start farther back on the approach, allow my backswing to go over my head, and cup and cock my wrist to add speed and power to my release. The result in most cases is not higher scores, just an endless stream of ringing 7 pins, along with more wear and tear on the body.

At scratch tournaments, I often see the power players losing steam in the later games, while I continue to let gravity do its thing. It reminds me of a video I saw recently of big cats and their hunting strategy. The reason they sneak up on their prey is because if they don't catch them within 4 seconds, they cannot keep up with them in a long chase. They have great power, but little endurance.

As always, I will continue to enjoy watching the power players with their dynamic style, but for my own game, I plan to stick with stroking the ball. I am inspired by the successful careers of strokers Earl Anthony, Walter Ray Williams, and Guiness World Record holder, Paeng Nepomuceno.
Posted by: BOSStull

Re: Viper Championship & Ryan Ciminelli - 12/23/13 10:41 AM

I'm with you Joe on being a stroker.

In my league that just ended out of eight bowlers that averaged over 220 six were strokers with an age over 55. Really doesn't support the idea that being stronger is better.