NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc.

Posted by: Mkirchie

NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/03/09 10:49 PM

I'm curious to see if anyone else from New Jersey has heard about this, it was announced by the house tonight before our league started. They said that all of the houses in NJ have been told by the state that 50/50's, raffles, pots, brackets, or card games of any type are to be stopped immediately. Any other states where this issue has come up?

Mark
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 05:57 AM

Uh Oh here come the fun police. I believe the 50/50 has been outlawed in MD for a while now, it still goes on, they just call it something different, like special drawing or something like that. Brackets are outlawed too, but they still go on, just not run by the people at the desk, so it doesn't involve the house in any way.
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 07:48 AM

We still call them 50/50s at the house I bowl in and it's announced by the front desk but not ran by the center. Same thing with the Survivor side pot that is ran by some leagues. Brunswick runs their own Strike Pot.

I think I heard about a crack down like this in parts of Pennsylvania a few years ago. I think it's ridiculous that they even worry about this stuff when there are so many more important things that need attended to.
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 08:02 AM

Interestingly enough, none of ours were ever run by the center, they were always run by the leagues. From the way the desk person sounded last night and the mechanic who I was talking to during league, even if the house does not run it, if it is discovered and reported, the house will be held liable for not stopping it.

What is lousy is that being our league ran the 50/50, that money went to the prize fund, so I'm expecting to pay a few bucks more for league next year, not terrible, but still not good.

Mark
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 08:19 AM

I think the biggest issue that the State has is they can't tax the winnings so they figure make the people stop doing them. It's all about the money. It can't be about anything else. I've never heard of a fight or any illegal activities taking place due to any of the side pots.

I can see how the State can try to hold the centers liable since it is being done in their building but unless the intercom is used how will the center know what is and what isn't going on. Well it would make the 50/50 harder to do though without the intercom.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 09:30 AM

Illinois has many gaming acts in place and a set of regulations for the specific game, raffles, bingo, Lottery, Pull Tabs, Jar games, as well as books written for Riverboat Gambling. General Bracket wagering falls under the following, as long as it is NOT a syndicated gambling activity, which is run by a professional gambling organization or business for profit.

Sec. 28‑1. Gambling.
(a) A person commits gambling when he:
(6) Sells pools upon the result of any game or contest of skill or chance,
(11) Knowingly transmits information as to wagers, betting odds, or changes in betting odds by telephone, telegraph, radio, semaphore or similar means; or knowingly installs or maintains equipment for the transmission or receipt of such information; except that nothing in this subdivision

(b) Participants in any of the following activities shall not be convicted of gambling therefor:
(2) Offers of prizes, award or compensation to the actual contestants in any bona fide contest for the determination of skill, speed, strength or endurance or to the owners of animals or vehicles entered in such contest;

So, my interpretation would be the person (s) who run 50/50 or brackets would be guilty of gambling, as well as the operator/manager of an establishment who provides equipment to transmit information of such activity.

The participant in a contest of skill that offers prizes is not gambling.

Any entity may apply for an Illinois Not for Profit Gaming License where the proceeds are subject to 20% retention for Gaming Taxes, No person affiliated receives compensation for conducting such game, and the entire balance of proceeds are given to the winner (s), minus any allowable operating costs.

In addition, Sec. 28‑8. Gambling losses recoverable.
(a) Any person who by gambling shall lose to any other person, any sum of money or thing of value, amounting to the sum of $50 or more and shall pay or deliver the same or any part thereof, may sue for and recover the money or other thing of value, so lost and paid or delivered, in a civil action against the winner thereof, with costs, in the circuit court.
(b) If within 6 months,
Posted by: Mattdean76

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 09:40 AM

maybe the government can focus more on regulating the political corruption, instead of a focusing on bowling. It would be nice to see if they can get their heads out of their rear ends and do something good for a change.
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 09:53 AM

Quote:
Sec. 28‑1. Gambling.
(a) A person commits gambling when he:
(6) Sells pools upon the result of any game or contest of skill or chance,


So I guess I will have to take down my pool of what day this pig of a woman (who has diabetes and mooches food all day at work from people) my wife works with will lose a leg. I think I will still have my wife bring donuts every day though.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Mattdean76
maybe the government can focus more on regulating the political corruption, instead of a focusing on bowling. It would be nice to see if they can get their heads out of their rear ends and do something good for a change.


I am sure here in Illinois, the primary focus has been on corrupt politicians. I haven't ever seen any federal or State prosecutors roaming the bowling centers.

In my lifetime, I think the number is 5 State Governors have been convicted and incarcerated. But, no one running brackets at bowling.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 10:07 AM

Originally Posted By: CoachJim
[quote]
So I guess I will have to take down my pool of what day this pig of a woman my wife works with will lose a leg. I think I will still have my wife bring donuts every day though.


You are running a pool on what day she will lose a limb? Bringing donuts is manipulation of contest results. You could be in trouble with the Fun Cops.

It's like life insurance. You are wagering that you will die and collect the policy value before you have paid that amount in premiums.
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 02:43 PM

Quote:
You are running a pool on what day she will lose a limb? Bringing donuts is manipulation of contest results. You could be in trouble with the Fun Cops.


Awww I can't have any fun.
Posted by: Mattdean76

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
Originally Posted By: Mattdean76
maybe the government can focus more on regulating the political corruption, instead of a focusing on bowling. It would be nice to see if they can get their heads out of their rear ends and do something good for a change.


I am sure here in Illinois, the primary focus has been on corrupt politicians. I haven't ever seen any federal or State prosecutors roaming the bowling centers.

In my lifetime, I think the number is 5 State Governors have been convicted and incarcerated. But, no one running brackets at bowling.


pretty sad isn't it? But the good news is the latest one is the President and he hasn't done anything wrong.... yet.
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 04:34 PM

Copied from Bowl.com and posted by an association manager in NJ.

I received 2 e-mails and a phone call in the past 12 hours informing me 50 bowling centers in NJ have been fined $3000. for allowing unlicensed 50/50's and or raffles during their leagues. Apparently the state is cracking down what was usually an overlooked activity to help raise funds for their budget shortfall. I was told a second offense will cost $15,000.00. I have been informed by 2 bowling centers already that all leagues must show a state and municipal license to run any type of activity like this. Although it is a bowling competition the centers may also tell us not to run brackets. I can understand this as it would probably cost a court fight to overturn a fine on this.
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 05:47 PM

Originally Posted By: infernocal
Apparently the state is cracking down what was usually an overlooked activity to help raise funds for their budget shortfall.


As a lifelong resident of NJ, I can say that I'm not too surprised, and we all knew right away it was due to the fact that they're not getting any money from it themselves, and this is their way to do just that. If only they would actually fix the budget problems in the state as opposed to being worried about 50/50's during bowling leagues.

Mark
Posted by: bball07

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 07:32 PM

Is it possible that the revenue is down at the casinoes. That is tax dollars, so the state needs to collect elsewhere. Only the begining, LOL.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 08:14 PM

In Ill, the State Budget report for the first 6 months of 08, indicated a 26% reduction in Casino taxes, about $150 mill, primarily due to the cigarette ban. An additional 6% drop was due to the economy. The second 6 month report is not public yet.

We're talking State Income Tax increases, folks. Chicago already has the highest Sales tax in the Nation.
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/04/09 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: bball07
Is it possible that the revenue is down at the casinoes.

Oh yeah, the casinos are doing terrible right now, a few have declared bankruptcy and other are pretty close.

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
We're talking State Income Tax increases, folks. Chicago already has the highest Sales tax in the Nation.


Heh, due to our budget issues, we're looking at our property taxes being increased again, and NJ has the dubious honor of being in the lead for that one.

I still can't believe that announcement last night, I never saw that coming. The high money leagues are going to be furious, they ran both brackets and an eliminator. Also, I would have won money the last game in a pot run by a league member.

Mark
Posted by: 4StepShaun

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/05/09 12:26 AM

How is this any different than the team who wins the league receiving more money than the team that comes in last?

Basically it's just another way the politicians (wealthy) keep the ordinary people from even the slightest bit of gambling without the government taking an ungodly cut of the prize fund.
Posted by: Stormin Norman Fan

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/05/09 02:08 PM

Originally Posted By: 4StepShaun
How is this any different than the team who wins the league receiving more money than the team that comes in last?

Basically it's just another way the politicians (wealthy) keep the ordinary people from even the slightest bit of gambling without the government taking an ungodly cut of the prize fund.


You nailed it right on the head. I have no idea how a 50/50 works in bowling. Is it like any other that you get in, buy a ticket and if your ticket is drawn, you win half of the pot? If so, then I can see their point.

As for brackets and high game side pots, I don't think they have any jurisdiction over that. If they claim that they do, then they need to prevent all bowling tournaments as well. I don't see that happening either.
Posted by: VFF57

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/05/09 08:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Mkirchie
I'm curious to see if anyone else from New Jersey has heard about this, it was announced by the house tonight before our league started. They said that all of the houses in NJ have been told by the state that 50/50's, raffles, pots, brackets, or card games of any type are to be stopped immediately. Any other states where this issue has come up?

Mark



I guess I'll find out if this will impact the house I bowl at tomorrow night during league. As of last Thursday (4/2) everything was business as usual.

I can't believe NJ is worried about this especially with all the gambling that goes on at Atlantic City and with the state lottery. As long as the state can make a buck on gambling that makes it perfectly fine. For the amount of property taxes we pay here in NJ the state should be providing us with free bowling centers. If anyone should be fined it should be the crooks that run NJ.

Posted by: xtraqewl

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/05/09 09:15 PM

gasp!.... the old ladies are all gonna lose their jobs?
Posted by: Aaron

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/05/09 11:29 PM

Not to sound racist so if any of the PC police read this, get over it! I have lived all over the world and one thing that I have noticed is that no matter where you are, if you go in a casino, there is nearly always a disproportionate number of Asians that are gambling! I now live in Singapore and all the centers that I bowl at have signs stating "NO GAMBLING". However, there are bookies (for lack of a better term) roaming the centers during every league match. You can bet on anything - splits, high games, 10 pin spares (7 for lefties), 10 pin spare in the opening frame, etc..... on your game or anyone else's. The money that people are putting up is theirs so it is none of my business (I think politicians should adopt the same attitude). It is really rather amusing at times and adds an element of entertainment to the leagues. The only time that it gets annoying is when someone leaves a gambling roll (7-10 split) for example, and cannot find a bookie! We all have to wait!
At my home center, on Wednesday nights, there is something that I can only compare to a "Cock Fight" taking place. A crowd of around 30 people are betting on every roll of a few guys playing. There seems to be a lot of money changing hands but the action is so fast (and in Mandarin Chinese) that I really do not know what is going on.
Again, though, it's their money and their business!
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/06/09 05:09 AM

Asian or not, that's just too cool. Wish we had that here. there are a few teams that I bowl with who will routinely wager on every ball. But, that's just between themselves. It is no where as organized as this.

This would be one way to increase the interest in bowling, as I see it.

Our house runs many wagering games. Depending on your average, you have a challenge to bowl strikes in various frames, like the 3-6-9th frame in one game for 160 bowlers and 2-4-7 and strike out in 10th for more established bowlers. Pays 5-1.

They run clean 30 pots that roll over if no winners, and 6 in a row strike pots that have been paid out weekly. they are going to raise it to 8.

Another house near here runs king of the hill tournaments every Weekend. Saturday is open, and Sunday is for over 50. Minimum $400 first place and higher depending on the number of entrants.

Others in our league run:
Hi game scratch and cap for each game
Doubles pots, enter with as many partners as you wish
K of H scr and cap
Survivor cap, and second chance survivor
Skins pot per set of 4 lanes

A bowler could easily wager $40-50 per night, and many do.
The most I ever came away with was $400 for a night
Posted by: shotcat

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/07/09 01:11 PM

In Michigan it was about 2 things. The first was gambling, like 50/50 tickets that are only about luck not skill. The other thing that got caught up in it was the liquor control commission. The law states that on a liscensed premises there shall be no gambling devices, such as cards, dice, etc. That is no doubt from when proabition ended and those who wanted to keep evil liquor away from evil gambling. Anyway, Euker and cards have been going in bars since ? and no one (authorities) have enforced those old LCC laws since who knows when or ever. As a proprietor with 50/50s going on and cards on every table some knights I called LCC to get an answer. I was first told that no one knew how it was going to be ruled and if I hadn't any violations or warning don't worry and watch for a new ruling to come down. LCC and local police didn't care or want to deal with it, and didn't have the manpower even if they did. A while later I heard that 50/50s under $50.00 were ok. I called again find out the lady at LCC said she had heard that but didn't know where it came from, and that 50/50s were probably more in the state gaming area. I haven't thought about it, I suppose LCC, state gaming, and law enforcement have better things to worry about. Last I knew no laws had changed. There is not muck money or political up side in the whole thing, it's just ticks off a lot of peopl. Ni politition wanted to deal with it, and they had all played cards in a bar too.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/08/09 06:51 AM

Hey Mark, just found out that the highest pot game around here was won last week. Elk Grove Bowl (NW of Chicago), has been running a strike pot for years, and without a winner, the pot has rolled over for a few years.

To win, you needed 3 strikes in frames 1-3 in game 1. 4 Strikes in frames 4-7 in game 2, and strike out from frame 8 on in game 3.

I don't know haw many years it has been going. But, the winner last week, took home over $19,000.

I don't know if they withheld any taxes. Doubt it.

I wasn't so fortunate last night. I made my weekly $20 contribution, though.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/08/09 07:09 AM

Here is the Michigan Law that I pulled from Bowl.com. Circulate it to your Congressmen.

750.310a Applicability of chapter; bowling game or bowling card game.
(1) Subject to subsection (3), this chapter does not apply to a bowling game or a bowling card game conducted in a bowling center to which all of the following apply:
(a) The total amount of the participation fee per person per game does not exceed $5.00.
(b) The total prize payout per league per game does not exceed $1,000.00 and is comprised only of participation fees.
(2) This section applies only to a game that is sponsored solely by 1 league and whose participants are members of the same league.
(3) The bowling center in which the bowling game or bowling card game is conducted shall not receive a percentage of the participation fees or prize money from bowling games or bowling card games for which a stake or prize is awarded.
(4) As used in this section:
(a) "Bowling center " means a bowling alley with a minimum of 5 lanes.
(b) "Bowling card game " means a card game held in conjunction with a bowling game, the results of which depend on the outcome of the bowling game. Bowling card game does not include any of the following:
(i) A mechanical or electronic simulation of a bowling card game.
(ii) Roulette, beano, cards unless used in a bowling card game, dice, wheels of fortune, video poker, slot machines, or other similar games in which winning depends primarily upon fortuitous or accidental circumstances beyond the control of the player.
(iii) A game that includes a mechanical or physical device that directly or indirectly impairs or thwarts the skill of the player.
(c) "Bowling game " means not more than 3 sets of 10 frames of bowling. Bowling game does not include any of the following:
(i) A mechanical or electronic simulation of a bowling game.
(ii) Roulette, beano, cards unless used in a bowling card game, dice, wheels of fortune, video poker, slot machines, or other similar games in which winning depends primarily upon fortuitous or accidental circumstances beyond the control of the player.
(iii) A game that includes a mechanical or physical device that directly or indirectly impairs or thwarts the skill of the player.
(d) "Participation fee " means a fee that is charged by the league to a participant in a game for which a stake or prize is awarded.
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/08/09 08:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
I don't know haw many years it has been going. But, the winner last week, took home over $19,000.


Wow, that's a nice chunk of money. Never bowled leagues at a house that does those strike jackpots, but I've bowled tournaments at ones in NJ that had them.

Also, thanks for posting the law from Michigan, I'll have to see if I can get anything going, although I just heard from someone about an article in our local paper where I found out that my house was one of the ones that was cited. Also in the article is this statement from the executive director of both Proprietors Associations in NJ,

"The commission only oversees games of chance. Games of skill, such as high-game pots and card games, should not be affected by the raffle penalty because they are not based on chance, Karten said."

I'm bringing this article to league Friday night to see if we can get pots and card games reinstated, although I'm sure there's others there who will have seen it and will say something about it too. Power in numbers.

Mark
Posted by: Steve

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/08/09 10:11 AM

You would think there would be bigger fish to fry in the state house, other than what a bunch of people do with their own money on a friday night!
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/08/09 11:14 PM

Steve, it's not a matter of what people are doing with their own money on league night but rather the fact that the state isn't getting anything from it.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/08/09 11:33 PM

Mark, there are a couple of PBA bowlers in our league, and we talked about the dilemma in NJ. One mentioned that he heard there was a significant payout of some kind of Bowling pot game, $10,000 was the number he mentioned. And, there was a resulting lawsuit filed because the winner was claimed NOT to have entered legitimately.

The speculation I got was that there was some publication of this, and the lawsuit brought all of this about.

Don't know if that is the real story, but that's what is talked about around here in the regional Pro circles.
Posted by: Reconbbs

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/09/09 05:26 AM

Every League that I bowl in has 50/50. They also begun doing something called cherry poppers. I don't currently participate in them but the Center gladly announces the winning numbers. We do high game pots all the time also. We've never had problems before with the police or anything.
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. - 04/09/09 08:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
The speculation I got was that there was some publication of this, and the lawsuit brought all of this about.


Interesting Dennis, I haven't heard anything about that in my part of NJ, but I wouldn't rule it out. There are no regional pros that bowl at my center, but there are a few at the other two near me. I know for sure it didn't happen at my center, we have no pots at my house that would go that high. My thought was that some important figure in NJ government was open bowling one night and got wind of a 50/50 there and decided to raise a stink about it.

Mark