Two handed style banned in your league?

Posted by: MithShrike

Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/21/09 01:30 PM

I was talking to a friend last night and apparently one of the leagues at my normal house has banned the two handed style in their rules. I was really surprised to hear this because I only know of three people that bowl there that use two handed.
Posted by: Reconbbs

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/21/09 03:57 PM

I honestly don't like that rule. I strongly believe that a person has the right to bowl the way they want to. How could a league ban that style when you see pros like Jason Belmonte bowling on TV with it?
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/21/09 03:59 PM

What was the rationale for banning two-handed deliveries? It's OK per USBC.
Posted by: TheDemolitionMan

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/21/09 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
What was the rationale for banning two-handed deliveries? It's OK per USBC.


Ignorance, close-mindedness, perhaps even jealousy.

If someone told me this was illegal I'd probably tell them to F-off and quit the league.

I don't bowl this way normally. I can do it and I find that it is a good sort of reset button for me if I'm having a bad game.
Posted by: Clyde

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/21/09 07:20 PM

hahaa i think its funny i bowl without my thumb and i get looks cause i avg 200. everyone has told me not to bowl like that but, im way better at it.
Posted by: Brandon510

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/21/09 08:01 PM

That like banning left handed bowlers. I wounder if they had a league vote or not to ban this in that league?
Posted by: Dr. Seuss

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/21/09 08:53 PM

This is more like golf and the belly putter, where other golfers feel that the belly putter gives those using it an advantage by being able to hold the end of the putter steady in ones stomach area thus creating an pendulum swing easier. In bowling the two handed style allows an easier way to generate revolutions, and it is a departure from the classic style of delivering the ball. Change is the only constant and there will always be resistance to change. Only time will tell if this is they new way to bowl or only a deviation from the classic delivery style that only a few will use.
Posted by: ToasTeR

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/21/09 09:47 PM

I think that is ridiculous, like someone else said its like banning left handers.
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/21/09 09:56 PM

Originally Posted By: TheDemolitionMan

Ignorance, close-mindedness, perhaps even jealousy.


Originally Posted By: Dr. Seuss
In bowling the two handed style allows an easier way to generate revolutions, and it is a departure from the classic style of delivering the ball. Change is the only constant and there will always be resistance to change. Only time will tell if this is they new way to bowl or only a deviation from the classic delivery style that only a few will use.



Ding, Ding, Ding. People don't like different and new ways of thinking/doing things. Especially the older timers.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/21/09 10:44 PM

Quote:
like someone else said its like banning left handers.


You can do this? Is there an existing precidence?

Erin
Posted by: leftykev

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/22/09 04:05 AM

USBC Rule 4a - Legal Delivery
A delivery is made when the ball leaves the player’s possession and crosses the foul line into playing territory. Every delivery counts unless a dead ball is declared. (See Rule 8.) A delivery must be made entirely by manual means. No device may be incorporated in or affixed to the ball that detaches on delivery or is a moving part during delivery except as provided in Rules 4b and 4c.

** I've searched through the rule book and there is no rule that addresses a 2 handed delivery because there is no way that USBC could say a 2 handed delivery is a illegal delivery (YET).

I've only seen Jason Belmonte bowl and unless his version of the 2 handed delivery is different, "at the point of release," only his right hand is on the ball. Just before release, his left hand/arm acts just as it does for all bowlers and acts as a normal balance arm. With a 2 handed delivery, when the balance hand/arm goes into motion, the 2 handed bowler would get more torso rotation, which would give him/her an extra advantage with ball speed.

I'm sure a 2 handed bowler could fight this at that house, and most likely win. This reminds me back in the day, when mixed leagues would try to deny an all women's team from bowling, and the women's team would protest, based on discrimination, then the leagues would always back off. I realize this is a differnt topic, but along the same lines.

So, what's next? No backup ball? No palm ball? No between the legs shot? nelson
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/22/09 08:17 AM

I found a discussion that took place at the 2007 USBC meeting that is related to this topic. It seems the general concensus is a bowler is either right or left handed classified based on the side of his body he delivers the ball from.

However, it is common for a 2-handed bowler to have an additional 'gripping' hole(s) drilled in the center of the grip, presumably for a finger(s) of the opposite hand. This is an additional hole or holes. The USBC discussion ruled that all holes meant for fingers and thumb must be used by the same hand. Ruling the gripping hole illegal.

From the Discussion: While a change was made several years ago to require gripping holes to be covered during a delivery, the current application would still allow a two-handed player to drill a set of finger holes for each hand on opposite sides of the ball. This allows a player to insert fingers from both hands to assist in maintaining the grip and imparting force on the ball.

Any hole that cannot be reasonably shown to be used with a single hand would be classified as a balance hole.

In addition, they discussed the thumb hole drilled for a bowler who used No Thumb. In this instance, the thumb hole was intended to be used for spare shooting.

The resolution was that each hole intended for a finger or thumb had to be covered in the delivery.

From the Discussion: As in the recent past, while not required to be used, all gripping holes must be covered throughout the approach and delivery. This means that a player not using the thumb hole must lay the ball in the palm of his/her hand such that the palm or thumb covers the thumb hole. If the player rotates the ball in manner that results in the thumb hole being fully exposed, they are in violation of USBC rules and following a warning, be subject to disqualification from the competition.

If the unused thumb hole is not covered in delivery, it is considered an extra balance hole, and illegal.

The actual rules have not been updated to include these conditions, but these rulings from discussion may be used until they are formally adopted.
This will be an interesting discussion, ruling, and test.

Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/22/09 08:35 AM

Well since leagues are invitational really the league can vote to deny anyone the chance to participate in the league but not really give a real reason. Of course this can always bring a law suit upon the league depending on who is being excluded. I doubt a 2 handed bowler could.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/22/09 08:48 AM

Found this photo of Jamie ???, forgot his name, in the 2006 Nationals. The picture clearly shows his thumb hole exposed during delivery. Would this be considered illegal today?


Posted by: CoachJim

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/22/09 09:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:
like someone else said its like banning left handers.


You can do this? Is there an existing precidence?


Just imagine it...bowling without left handers

I think some people don't like two handed bowlers because they feel that two handers are just looking for a short cut to high scores and don't want to put the work in or pay their dues.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/22/09 09:22 AM

Left handers really don't bother me. They don't use my line. They don't spread the oil in my way. They don't ruin my shot.

Now, If we could get rid of those RH crankers who constantly drag the oil into the dry corners, I'd be happy.
Posted by: leftykev

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/22/09 12:34 PM

I think leagues should ban red bowling balls and balls that have a fragrance. oops nelson
Posted by: Lefty

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/22/09 09:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Brandon510
That like banning left handed bowlers. I wounder if they had a league vote or not to ban this in that league?


This is a good point. Did they vote on this, and if so, when? If it was done after the season started, they'd have to have 100% approval.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/22/09 11:33 PM

They can't do it at the start of league or after the league has started. A league cannot adopt a rule that vetos a USBC rule. Since USBC has delivery rules that do not prohibit two handed delivery then a league cannot ban it.

Unless of course they are NOT sanctioned.

Erin
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/23/09 12:24 AM

That's what I thought, Erin. The USBC has clarified the predominant hand in a 2-handed delivery, and eliminated the use of grip holes by the other hand, and clarified where and how the holes are to be used. They have accepted a 2-handed delivery.
As well as thumbless.

It is not specifically stated as such in a rule book. But, neither is a cranker or stroker.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Two handed style banned in your league? - 02/23/09 12:32 AM

If they do not accept the two handed release ala Belmonte, then they cannot allow pee wees to crouch at the foul line and roll the ball with two hands. Which has been an accepted way to start learning the process of bowling. Ramps are allowed, balls with spring loaded handles are allowed, guide lines for the blind are allowed. Two handed Belmonte method is nothing compared to what's already been allowed.

Erin