League rule help

Posted by: Jekyl6573

League rule help - 11/15/08 11:42 AM

I have book averages for both hands. I booked 156 left and 194 right. I have been subbing in a league alternating between hands. I'll explain

week 1 - I bowled right handed all three games never switching to left hand

week 2 - I bowled left handed all three games never switching to right hand

week 3 - I bowled right handed all three games never switching to left hand


I continued this pattern for another 8 weeks.


Tonight I was told by the league secretary that I am not to switch hands anymore. That I am to stay subbing right handed. She told me (LOL) just like this "you're being watched from this point on". The league secretary and I recently worked at the same place and I'm currently suing the company for a wrongful termination. So any responses would be greatly appreciated. Just need to know if she is correct in what she is saying or if she is harassing me.
Posted by: Brandon510

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 12:13 PM

First off welcome to the site:


What i under stand the rules to be is that you may only change from right to left. If it is due to injury and officers in your league agree. Not 100% Sure. Erin probablly chime in and give you more insite to this.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 12:14 PM

If this is a USBC league you cannot switch hands from week to week without permission from the league. In otherwords, you need to have a league meeting and explain your reasoning for switching hands (you can't do it just because you want to) and then the league has to give you permission to use whatever hand you are asking about. But you cannot switch back and forth in the league during the season.

As an association director and office staff, we do have lists of people that are trying to do what you are doing. Because most do this with not the best intentions. And some have been suspended by USBC for doing so. So she is not harassing you at all. If you had been doing this is a league where I was bowling you would not have made it past three weeks of switching back and forth and probably in the process of having your card pulled.

Plus in tournaments, you use your highest average no matter what hand it is. So when we find people that do this, we always rerate them to their highest average for local tournaments.

Erin
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 01:26 PM

I also want to extend a welcome to this site.

The information Erin gave is all correct and you are lucky that they haven't started the process of having your USBC card pulled, assuming this is a sanctioned league since you refer to book averages.

Of course the President of the league should have approached you about this, but in any case the secretary is correct you can only bowl either all right or all left handed. Since you started the season with the right hand you have to use that hand unless the Board of Directors, that's the League Officers and Team Captains, vote to allow you to switch due to some sort of injury, but it has to be real.
Posted by: Jekyl6573

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 03:50 PM

Quote:
you are lucky that they haven't started the process of having your USBC card pulled


You would pull someones card for switching hands before league play? How do you know the person knows the rules as well as you do? I could understand if you told them of the rule and they decided to switch anyways. Well then by all means yank that puppy. But come on... I booked 156 left and 194 right last season and bowl 6 games a week (if i get picked up to sub). I don't do tournaments whatsoever. Far from a threat to anyone. Every night before I started bowling I would tell the opposing team which hand I was going with. They knew that I was not to switch...and so did I.
Pull my card? I didn't know...

Thanks for your response everyone
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 04:14 PM

Some people would try to start the proceedings, others will give you the warning first. I don't have any power to pull someone's card and have never been a league officer and I would first advise them of the rule. That doesn't always work as some people get offensive and want to get unruly. I've seen it happen numerous times. Now you know the rule and apparently others didn't know it either, but ignorance of the rule is no excuse. Try going to court for a criminal or traffic offense and tell a judge that you didn't know that what you did was illegal.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 05:19 PM

Rules 118b, and 118e.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 06:53 PM

Absolutely I'd start process to have your card pulled because the way you described it you were doing this during league play, not before.

USBC has rules and the league has rules. The leagues have meetings prior to starting their league were rules and officers are voted on. All league players are supposed to attend this meeting. If you start the league late, then you have a team captain that is supposed to guide the team and keep it within the playing rules.

What is the saying? "ignorance of the rule is not an excuse". The rule books are given to the president and secretary and treasurer. Plus the center should have a copy. Plus they are on bowl.com The rules are easily available.

What you have done is worthy of having your scores made null and void and wins and losses recalculated and procedings for suspension. That the league allowed you to continue this for 8 weeks is somewhat typical of the laziness of league officers these days. You are lucky you were not in a more competative league. Now you know. Pick a hand and stick with for the season in league. If you need to change hands, usually due to injury, then a league vote must take place. If you want to open play using either hand back and forth that's your choice, but not in a USBC league.

Erin
Posted by: Brandon510

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 06:53 PM

Those are the rules. So she probably gave you a warning since she said you not to switch anymore and will be watching you. So if you do switch she will probably start t he proceeding to have your card pulled.
Posted by: greggas

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 08:50 PM

if you really do want to continue bowling with either hand, your only option is to join a 2nd league. then you can throw right handed in one, left in the other. (you would still have to use the higher average for tournaments regardless of which hand you use.)
Posted by: Cryssen

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 09:47 PM

Pardon me if it's irrelevent, but since he is a sub in this league, does that make a difference?
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 10:03 PM

Doesn't matter if he's a sub, all subs are to be USBC sanctioned in a USBC league and therefore have to adhere to those rules. After all, if he wouldn't have to pay for sanctioning then his scores wouldn't count either.

Erin
Posted by: NewEnglandBowler

Re: League rule help - 11/15/08 11:23 PM

Erin you seem very angry about this issue. :-/


i remember a rule about not switching hands in the middle of a league nights, but i had no prior knowledge of a rule stating that you could not bowl with both hands, using only one hand on different league days. i know if i did that (which i can't, i bowl terrible with my left hand) i would appreciate a warning not to do it anymore, rather than just a sanction card pull without any warning. but i suppose that's just the route that some people decide to take, why they would do so is beyond me.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 12:49 AM

Yes I am and I'll tell you why. People say that bowling has lost it integridy and they blame the lane conditions and new dynamic balls. But the way I see it is that the competators do not have integridy with lack of competativeness and scorn of the rules put in by the governing body. The excuse of not knowing the rules is just another example. Who competes in a game where dues are paid (oh yeah I forgot, subs tend to not pay dues and therefore are not invested in the game), and prize fund is given without knowing anything about the rules? Happens in bowling all the time, but you don't get in a car and drive without knowing the rules. And reguardless of the conditions and equipment, if the competators do not honor the game then what's the use? I mean coming in one week bowling right handed, then left handed, then right handed.....what the heck. What kind of honor does that give the game you're just playing not competing. And I understand that we have handicap and therefore it seems that it shouldn't matter after all handicap will balance it out either way. But when you start playing with the ethics of the game and treating it like a joke, then its hard to regain any honor and integidy that's been lost. Right now its just a game, switching back and forth, but it won't be long before one night you hit a tough team and you make a choice of hands to use instead of just arbitrary back and forth. The players don't honor the rules, the league officers don't honor the rules then how can we ever have this sport taken seriously?

Olympics??? don't even bother to bring it up.

Erin

Erin
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 12:54 AM

The process for having your card pulled and a bowler suspended is very complex and full of warnings, letters and meetings. There is ample opportunity for a league and bowlers to settle the matter before any official suspension, but there are procedures that have to be followed. There's your warnings, if the league wasn't already gracious enough to give a verbal warning first.

Erin
Posted by: Jekyl6573

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 01:13 AM

K.M. Ryan you got it right. There is no rule that specifically outlines what it is that I am asking about. It seems that rule 118 is assumed by many, to be the answer to my question.

Atochabsh...WOW

"Absolutely I'd start process to have your card pulled because the way you described it you were doing this during league play, not before."

I never said I switched hands during league play. That's a big no no. I said whatever hand I started with is the hand I stayed with the entire night. There must be some underlining prejudice regarding this subject. I think something is automatically assumed of those who can bowl with either hand. In tournaments you have to take the highest booked average anyways. I do not bowl tournaments and have no intentions of starting.

"But when you start playing with the ethics of the game and treating it like a joke,"

Seriously? Are you saying that I am treating this wonderful, beautiful, awesome best damn game on the planet called bowling like a joke because I am able to use both hands? I don't even know how that's possible
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 02:15 AM

Yes you are treating league play as a joke because you are not playing at your optimum best. If you know you average in the 190s right handed and 150s left handed then you are purposely not bowling to your optimum potential.

You cannot change hands week to week in league play without a league meeting and a vote allowing you to do so. This is typically done for injuries, not whim.

There is no prior prejudice, just a very sad and apparently senseless voice that this game is not given the honor it could, by its own participants, due in part to these types of games that people play.

With your continued arguement for this, I renew my support that I would have taken measures to have meetings that would bring your membership up for suspension because you just don't seem to get it. And the sport doesn't need that.

I have known people that bowled entire seasons with one hand and then next with the other. PLus they also earned honor scores in those seasons no matter the hand they were using. But they stuck with one hand throughout the season. When we enter in the year to end averages there's a spot to mark for which hand it was earned under. So its not that light a subject. You cannot go back and forth; period.

Erin

Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 02:37 AM

Quote:
118. Establish New Average due to Change in Delivery


If because of injury or disability a bowler finds it necessary to change delivery from right- to left-handed or vice-versa, the league’s board of directors, by majority vote, may permit the bowler to change delivery. If approval is obtained, the bowler must establish a new average.

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 118e



118e/1
May a bowler switch his/her delivery after the start of the season due to injury?

Yes. However, the bowler is required to obtain permission from the league’s board of directors. If the bowler were later able to return to their original hand delivery, permission would again have to be obtained from the board. No combination of scores bowled both right- and left-handed can be used in computing an average. Therefore, two separate averages would have to be maintained. A bowler who switches without permission forfeits those games.


Take note of the very last sentance. So your first 8 weeks of league play are up for forfeture and recalculation of all wins and losses.

Erin
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 02:58 AM

Erin is absolutely correct, and that is why I posted the rule numbers. A bowler cannot arbitrarily change his had of delivery as he sees fit, unless the league Board of Directors agrees that he may do so.

The rules are written as an allowance for injury and disability. Those are the only allowable cases to discuss. Not to just allow someone to change arbitrarily.
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 09:02 AM

I have to agree with the majority of people in this thread. If you were to do that, with the difference in average, you might as well be two different bowlers bowling subbing under the same name. In any league that I am in, after you have subbed the first week under your most recent book average, you establish an average in that league. The next time you sub, you have to bowl under that average that you established, not your most recent book average. I can't imagine that any league secretary would let you carry two established averages, one right handed, one left handed, or let you sub under your most recent book average week after week even though you have already bowled a decent amount of games in the league. Imagine you bowl lefty the first time you sub, establish a lower average, and then decide to bowl right handed to take advantage of it. Then bowl lefty again to bring it a bit lower again. It would seem to be a way to perform average management without it looking too suspicious to others.

Even if you had pretty much the same average for both hands, I'd still be against it. Let's say you bowl in a 2nd shift league, you could watch the bowlers on the 1st shift, see how many rightys/leftys are on the pair and watch where they are playing. Then, you determine which hand you want to use based on whichever hand gets you closest to your most comfortable shot to the pocket.

As said earlier, if you want to bowl with both hands, bowl righty in one league and lefty in another. Unless you're injured, I see no legitimate reason to make the switch in the same league, and especially doing it on a week to week basis.

Mark
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Jekyl6573
K.M. Ryan you got it right. There is no rule that specifically outlines what it is that I am asking about. It seems that rule 118 is assumed by many, to be the answer to my question.

I never said I switched hands during league play. That's a big no no. I said whatever hand I started with is the hand I stayed with the entire night. There must be some underlining prejudice regarding this subject. I think something is automatically assumed of those who can bowl with either hand. In tournaments you have to take the highest booked average anyways. I do not bowl tournaments and have no intentions of starting.



118b. How Established

Each league shall adopt a rule to determine the number of games required to establish an average in that league. The following applies when establishing an average:

1. A right-handed bowler must always bowl right-handed. Similarly, a left-handed bowler must always bowl left-handed. Penalty: Forfeiture of game.

2. No combination of scores bowled both right- and left-handed can be used to compute an average, except as stipulated in Rule 4c.

3. The league’s board of directors may, by majority vote, adjust a player’s average before the player bowls in the league or during the season due to injury or disability. Separate averages must be maintained.

Youth leagues:

4. A bowler using a two-handed delivery will establish an average with two hands. When the bowler changes to a one-handed delivery, they must establish a new average using that hand.

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 118b

118b/1 If a bowler uses his/her opposite hand to make a delivery during a game, what happens?

If an individual does not have permission from the league’s board of directors, a league officer or the league board would then have the following options within the timelines as stated in Rule 119.

· Declare the individual’s game forfeited: The bowler would receive zero for the game. (Note: Scores bowled by the other team members not in violation stand as bowled.)

· Declare the team’s game forfeited: The team would receive zero for the game. (Note: The individual in violation would receive zero. However, scores bowled by the other team members counts toward their individual averages and league awards unless the league rules state otherwise.)


It isn't assumed that rule 118 is the answer, it is without a doubt the answer except to those who think it doesn't apply to them. There is a rule covering the situation and what Erin said about the integrity of the game, or lack there of is also from people trying to find the gray areas in the rules and then trying to exploit them.
Posted by: Stormin Norman Fan

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 10:46 AM

WOW! All that was asked is how the rule was stated, to clarify what the secretary was saying. (due to the non-bowling issue between the two) In no way was this a "pile on me because I wasn't doing something right" thread. Take a deep breath and relax a little.

I understand what everyone is saying and trying to uphold the integrity of the game. But, by bashing someone that doesn't know, isn't helping out the cause either. It is better to educate than to chastise, or else they may just leave the game all together, thinking that those of us that do bowl on a regular basis, are a bunch of uptight people.

Take the time to explain WHY this is not acceptable, not "I would yank your card in a heartbeat". What does that solve? I have to admit too, that the rule book has changed quite a bit over the years. Some of the rules in the current book have been edited a bit and aren't spelled out as clearly as they used to be, creating these "gray areas" that inferno mentioned. It may be spelled out on-line, but not in the handbook that is given to the secretaries and bowling centers.

I looked this exact rule up one night in the book, trying to educate someone on it, because they threw at their spare with the opposite hand. And nowhere did it state that you couldn't use the opposite hand. It vaguely gave an explanation, that could have been interpreted a couple of ways. Also, it involved a spare in the tenth frame, of the last game, that helped them win the game by 8 pins, which they should have lost due to the rule infraction. Luckily for him, the team he was bowling knew that this was his first sanctioned league and didn't make it an issue. However they did mention that what he did was against the rules. He started to argue the point, saying they were making a big deal out of it and I had to help him understand that, no they weren't making a big deal out of it, just letting him know that it was against the rules (for future reference), that they still let them have the win, or else they would have forfeited that game and total pinfall too.

Bottom line, it's better to educate them on the rules and regulations of the game, than to just say "no, that's wrong, you're done". They never learn anything that way and may never want to participate ever again. And if there are no new bowlers, then there won't be any need for bowling alleys, leaving those of us that do enjoy it, without.
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 11:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Jekyl6573
Just need to know if she is correct in what she is saying or if she is harassing me.


Stormin Norman Fan, that is the question that was asked. So we told him that she is correct and some even cited the rules. When someone responds that there is no clear rule pertaining to the situation when there is and its been cited several times that's when integrity is brought up. On the other hand, in real life ignorance of a law or rule isn't an excuse for breaking it and has it's consequences.

Like I said in my first post, I have no issue with giving someone a benefit of the doubt they don't know the rule and give them a fair warning, which it seemed the Secretary did. She isn't harassing him, someone brought it to her attention and she took care of the situation. Of course this should be the President's job which unless he/she also worked for the same company would have made the things going on outside of bowling a non-issue.

As for the online Rule Book versus the hard copy passed out, it is my understanding it is the same thing, as the online version is just a digital version that one can use a search feature to make things easier while the one handed out to league officers is printed. I haven't seen a hard copy, but from what I've read on other sites it sounds like they are the same.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 11:47 AM

Cal, hard copy and on-line are the same. On-line seems to be updated quicker while the hard copy waits for the next printing.

But, as you, I read this as an attempt to circumvent the written rules with alternate conditions and circumstances being presented in 'What If' manner. The rule is the rule. Like it or leave it.

Just because the Secy works at the same place has NO bearing on the issue.
Posted by: Jekyl6573

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 06:10 PM

"Imagine you bowl lefty the first time you sub, establish a lower average, and then decide to bowl right handed to take advantage of it. Then bowl lefty again to bring it a bit lower again."

I must have not explained myself well enough.

When I bowl right handed..I use whatever my average is for my right hand. In the league that I sub for, My name is on the league sheet twice. One name has R/H at the end with my right hand average. The other name has L/h at the end with my left hand average. I'm not using one average for both hands. That's just stupid.

Stormin Norman you're cool man. You got what I was feeling from this forum. I asked a question and get made to feel like a criminal. You guys respond with such anger as if I committed murder. To me it feels like you guys are that cop who pulls people over for going 5mph over the speed limit. I think I had a legit question that warranted no hostile responses. Instead people answer my question and then throw in their two cents with ..well I would have done this to you and that. Which then opens up a whole other discussion that is soooo unnecessary.

From all of your responses, I have concluded that she is not harassing me. Those are the rules for now. Thank you

Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 06:42 PM

I don't think anyone responded with anger, but maybe a few with some frustration. After several people stated what you did was illegal according to the USBC Rulebook and either cited the rule number, or even copied the rule to this forum, you didn't feel it pertained to your situation or that it wasn't clear. This is when the integrity discussion started. It is true there are many unclear rules, but this one isn't one of them. Also if you have read many of the other threads on this site you will see that they rarely stay on the original topic after a few posts that change them slightly and this post was no different.
Posted by: Jekyl6573

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 07:04 PM

ok you win....
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Jekyl6573
When I bowl right handed..I use whatever my average is for my right hand. In the league that I sub for, My name is on the league sheet twice. One name has R/H at the end with my right hand average. The other name has L/h at the end with my left hand average. I'm not using one average for both hands.


I can't believe that someone even let you establish two different averages with two different hands in the same league in the first place. You were essentially listed as two different bowlers, not one. Not only that, but that they let it go on for as many weeks as you have stated, that should have been handled the second week the first time you changed hands. Although it is against the rules, they let it go way too long.

Mark
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 10:17 PM

You also have to understand the positions of some of the posters here. Some like Cal and myself are more into rules, as we have been asked to find and quote them in the past. Another, like Erin actually works in an Association Office, and is closer to the administration function of following the rules. So, there are different perspectives on reading and following rules. Cal and I as league Officers are asked rules interpretations often while Erin has to administer adherance.

You are one of those bowlers who ask a question, hear an answer, and have a right to question why, but not ignore what the intent of the rule is.
Posted by: SilentTuba

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 11:25 PM

I think we all need to keep in mind that on the internet, no one can hear the inflection in your voice. Something you intend to be polite can be easily misconstrued as being rude or defensive, and can set off a chain reaction, or a flame war. Believe me when I tell you, this is the single most polite and levelheaded forum I have ever seen, so if you are illiciting what you perceive as a harsh reaction, you should reexamine the tenor of your posts, and see where your intentions may have been misunderstood.

As for...
Originally Posted By: Jekyl6573
ok you win....


...it isn't about winning here. It's simply about trying to clarify the rules. You didn't know what they were, and to you, it seemed like a foolish rule. Fair enough. Others have explained that they think it is not a foolish rule, and have gone so far as to explain how severe the penalty might be for breaking it. No one was attacking you, just saying hey, you can't do that, you can get your sanction card revoked. To further explain the severity, Erin mentioned that, if she were in the position of your league secretary, she would have started the process already....it's considered that serious. Take that for what it is, and move forward.

As for your league secretary, from the way you phrased your question ("wondering if she's harassing me), think of it this way....you now know what the rule is. You also know how serious the penalty is. Her coming to you, telling that you are not to switch, and that they are going to be watching to make sure you don't switch, was the exact opposite of harassment....she was cutting you a break. That's how I see it, anyway.
Posted by: Lefty

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 11:53 PM

Jekyl - It doesn't matter how many times you explain it. It's against the rules.

Here's a Q&A about switching hands.

Quote:

118e/1
May a bowler switch his/her delivery after the start of the season due to injury?

Yes. However, the bowler is required to obtain permission from the league’s board of directors. If the bowler were later able to return to their original hand delivery, permission would again have to be obtained from the board. No combination of scores bowled both right- and left-handed can be used in computing an average. Therefore, two separate averages would have to be maintained. A bowler who switches without permission forfeits those games.


By USBC rule, the games you bowled with the hand other than the one you started the league with are forfeited.
Posted by: Lefty

Re: League rule help - 11/16/08 11:56 PM

Originally Posted By: SilentTuba
Others have explained that they think it is not a foolish rule, and have gone so far as to explain how severe the penalty might be for breaking it.


There's really not a "might be". The rule is that the games are forfeit. The league may have chosen to break the rule and not make him forfeit the games, but that's still what's supposed to happen.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: League rule help - 11/17/08 01:22 AM

Man, you think an internet forum is rough? How do you get by in real life?

You asked we answered. It didn't go your way and you tried to rationalize your actions repeatedly with hints of "you're picking on me".

Its true you were lucky. Some leagues around here would hold the league to the forfeiture rule and the entire league would now be in chaos due to your actions. Sorry if you don't like the reply but its my opinion from my experience. 10000 bowlers and over 200 leagues in our association.

So much about this game is out of our control, the lane conditions the type of balls on the market. But the rules are there period. They are not out of our control they are the rules for USBC league play. Our association has a lot of non sanctioned leagues. If you want a league without such rules, ask around your local centers for a non sanctioned league.

Erin

Posted by: Jekyl6573

Re: League rule help - 11/17/08 12:46 PM

Quote:
I can't believe that someone even let you establish two different averages with two different hands in the same league in the first place. You were essentially listed as two different bowlers, not one. Not only that, but that they let it go on for as many weeks as you have stated, that should have been handled the second week the first time you changed hands. Although it is against the rules, they let it go way too long.

Mark


exactly

I was subbing for 8 weeks and nothing had been said. I thought everything was fine as long as I told the opposing team. The company just received noticed that I was suing them and all of a sudden there is a problem. That's why I had to ask. But then this topic got outta hand.
Posted by: ExBronxiteBowler

Re: League rule help - 11/17/08 01:27 PM

What does the company you used to work for have to do with anything? Aside from the fact that the sect works there?? Tell ya what, if you had attempted that in any league I bowl in, and you would have been called on it immediately with perhaps a verbal warning but the rules are very clear about the penalties about establishing an average with both the left and right hand in the same league.... and if the league officers did not address it, you can be sure I would have addressed it by emailing USBC National headquarters... If the league was not Sanctioned by the USBC you can do whatever you want, but since it is, you are bound to adhere to USBC rules and regulations. You can still do anything you want, but bear in mind that there could repercussions as far as games being forfeited, etc.... if usbc rules are not adhered to.
Posted by: General Pounder

Re: League rule help - 11/17/08 02:00 PM

I think that the main thing about it is that he was allowed to do it for so long and then was told no after the law suit was filed.

I can see a stink brought up about doing it in the same league. What about different leagues? Say Monday righty and Tuesday lefty?
Posted by: ExBronxiteBowler

Re: League rule help - 11/17/08 02:28 PM

No issue there since its not the same league. I could see the rule being challenged in another way though.. if he pays for two spots, and bowls on the same team, one lefty and one righty, establishes an average for lefty and one for righty, and does not switch hands in the middle of a frame they might let him do that. That might be worth checking out with the USBC to see if that is allowed....
Posted by: General Pounder

Re: League rule help - 11/17/08 02:43 PM

I remember a few years ago, there was a college pitcher who could throw right and left handed. They made him declare which hand before each player but when he wouldn't change hands once he started a game. He could be his own relief pitcher.

Exbronxite:

I think that you may have a point. Plus, he was told which hand he had to use. I don't think that is correct. I think that he should be able to choose.
Posted by: Lefty

Re: League rule help - 11/17/08 03:04 PM

Quote:

I think that you may have a point. Plus, he was told which hand he had to use. I don't think that is correct. I think that he should be able to choose.


He chose on the first night of bowling. Once he threw a ball with either his left hand or right, that's the hand he has to use unless he gets approval from the board of directors that he can switch to the other hand.
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: League rule help - 11/17/08 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: General Pounder
I remember a few years ago, there was a college pitcher who could throw right and left handed. They made him declare which hand before each player but when he wouldn't change hands once he started a game. He could be his own relief pitcher.


To go off on this tangent, I read about something like this happening this past spring. The pitched could throw with either hand, and the batter was also a switch hitter. When one switched the other switched. I forget what all happened, I know the umps stepped in as the at bat was taking forever.
Posted by: Scott Gannon

Re: League rule help - 11/17/08 06:56 PM

Wow, this is one of those interesting subjects. For what it is worth I am giving my opinion on it.

I have never seen anyone do this in my league and one time when it was due to injury that bowler was strictly informed of the rules on this. I think the reason it came up after 8 weeks in your case was probably more of a situation where someone complained about it than a personal vendetta by the Secretary. I clearly understand the rule and think it is an excellent rule.

I understand Erin’s position because a lot of bowlers are looking for an angle. They try to push and find loopholes in the Rules for their advantage. I know this is not the case for you but sometimes people get misconceptions and I think we have all had to deal with that at one time or another.

So at least now you know and you can just pick a hand and move on. I would not take it personal if I were you. It appears as though after 8 weeks someone finally brought it up to the League officers and they acted appropriately. As far as the comment that you are being watched, although I do not know why a lot of people who do this are in trouble but I would assume somehow they are using it to abuse the system.
Posted by: JedC

Re: League rule help - 11/19/08 03:47 AM

There was an instance on one of my leagues either last year or the year before where the anchor bowler of the opposing team threw at a 10 pin with his left hand (normally a righty) on the fill ball. It had no bearing on the score as we'd won pretty handily, but we informed him of the rule and didn't pursue anything past that. It was his first league, it didn't change the outcome, and he missed the pin anyway, heh.

The thing that struck me as funny about the situation was what he said when we brought it up. He told us that the secretary said he could do that. There were no meetings or anything to discuss it and it wasn't in the league rules. We talked to the secretary on the side about it and showed him the rulebook and he said "Oh, that's a rule?" Needless to say I don't bowl on that league anymore. :P

I do have a quick rule question though while I'm here. I bowl in a house where there's maybe 4-5 lefties on the whole league, and in general they're very good bowlers. I would never do this, but someone said that next time they bowled one of the lefties they were going to throw weird shots lefty in practice to "mess with their oil". Does that fall under unfair tactics or anything like that?
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: League rule help - 11/19/08 08:35 AM

Practice doesn't count toward league rules, and is no different than a righty [censored] with the oil in practice over another's line. Rules take affect when the first ball is rolled in competition.
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: League rule help - 11/19/08 05:41 PM

Welcome to the site JedC.

I believe Dennis is right, it's the same as a lefty trying to disrupt the line of another lefty or a righty doing it to a righty. My question is why would someone want to do something so stupid as to throw useless practice shots to disrupt the line of someone of the opposite hand instead of getting warmed up and getting things worked out on their own side?

As for your story about the secretary who told a bowler he could use his opposite hand, don't you just love when officers don't know the rules? Unfortunately I've come across this several times. I've never been a league officer and now the rule book better than 75% of the officers in all the leagues I've bowled in.
Posted by: Scott Gannon

Re: League rule help - 11/19/08 05:56 PM

Cal,

That is amazing that an officer would say that. I was a President who had no experience but the first thing I did was go through the rule book. Then if situations came up I just pulled out the rule book and looked it up. I had one situation that was a little complicated and I contacted the USBC for an answer. There really is no excuse for randomly telling someone something is o.k. when you haven't even cracked open the rule book to make sure.
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: League rule help - 11/19/08 06:02 PM

With some of the officers I've had in leagues, I'm not surprised at all that one would say that. Some officers will only enforce rules when they benefit them, for example against a team that is above them or competing with them at the top of the standings, or that will make up their own interpretation of the rule that is completely opposite of the rule.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: League rule help - 11/20/08 09:13 AM

We had a case last night where a team of Younger bowlers, and I use the term younger to describe their maturity, were losing the final game, and decided to bowl a few spare balls, rolling between their legs.

This is a clear violation of rule 118. They were told to stop by the Pres, but continued a bowler later. The Pres and I had a dicsussion, as I am the VP, and we informed them that being warned, and they continued, they would forfeit their scores. The obvious argument ensued, but the Officers won.

Now the question arose. Do we record a '0' for them as if they had not bowled? Or do we count their game, but with a '0' score? That was not clear.

My contention was '0' as if they had not bowled, since a game recorded as bowled with a '0' score has an impact on bowler averages and handicap calculation. The Pres will call the Association Office today to get resolution.
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: League rule help - 11/20/08 06:02 PM

Dennis, my contention is the same as yours, it's "0" as if they haven't bowled since they forfeit the game. That's how I view it, but I've been known to be wrong before.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: League rule help - 11/20/08 09:05 PM

I asked our Assoc manager about this. His contention as well as mine is that in a handicapped league including the 0 in his average calculation gives him a benafit. And he should not benefit from poor behavior. Also he didn't bowl the 0. So I believe that his average should be calculated from the two games he did bowl.

Erin
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: League rule help - 11/20/08 10:45 PM

That is what the Association said here, as well. But, in order for the House computer to calculate this properly, the games recorded in the scorer had to be wiped clean, and the bowlers type changed to absent for that game.

We had to finagle the computers to get it right.