What would you do? (cheating)

Posted by: Silent Mike

What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 05:54 AM

Let's say there is a person on your league. They are a good bowler no question with a 225+ average(extra easy THS and typical THS delivery). No one really cares for said bowler because of their attitude. Said bowler makes comments about other people's score, achievements etc etc I have seen said bowler leave a 4-9 split, the machine comes down and clearly knocks a pin down. This person then does a score correction and continues to spare it up. Mind you this was 2-3 lanes away from me and not the pair I'm on but I watch intently because I have seen it once before.

Two things: wouldn't you as being a good bowler and leading the league in average be fair and record an honest score? If they do this and it inflates their average in my opinion they are cheating the league and themself. The people whom they're bowling against who allows it is cheating the league as well.

Do I or any other person have the right to intervene and make them play the game fairly by scoring it appropriately even though we are not on this person's pair? I know when we do finally get to bowl this person and if they're foolish enough to try something like that they will hear in no uncertain terms how I and other feel about the actions and they'll be forced to follow rules.

Just a pet peeve of mine. I have NEVER let a score correction go or cheated the game, my opponent or myself. I don't think anyone says much due to this person's attitude but I'm not going to be one of those people.
Posted by: Tim Gerard

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 08:11 AM

Why did'nt the the "said" bowlers opponent say something when they made the score adjustments? Or his teamates, for that matter. Are they that intiminated by this guy? That would not fly on our team, or in our league. I think it must be brought to the leagues attention, let it be known just what a fraud this guy is.

Here is a guy that acts all big and bad because he is one of the leagues better bowlers, when the fact is ...he is a cheater. He should have an * asterisk next to his name on the score sheet.
Guys like that just frost me.
Posted by: Lefty

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 08:41 AM

I have a similar question.. did anyone see the rack knock it down? If so then they should say something, but if no one saw it, you take what the result is.

And yes anyone, even on a different pair can say they saw it. I had one person get mad at me because I tried to get their attention when they were missing a 5 pin. They struck and I told them they had to shoot it over. The guy was [censored] for the rest of the night.
Posted by: AmpleSound

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 09:31 AM

Heck I got burned, last season, on a strike because the 5 pin wasn't in there... Wish I would have known I could shoot it over!

I would say approach the league president, it would be better to handle it politically rather than personally for the leagues sake anyways.
Posted by: Lefty

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 09:46 AM

Originally Posted By: AmpleSound
Heck I got burned, last season, on a strike because the 5 pin wasn't in there... Wish I would have known I could shoot it over!


It's not that you can shoot it over.. you have to shoot it over.
Posted by: Timotheus

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 09:52 AM

If his average is that high then he's been bowling enough to know the rules about outside interference in knocking pins over (pinsetter, ball jumping out of the gutter, shooting a pin with a pellet gun (lol), etc.). But then again, the way you describe him, he's just a giant [censored] who probably thinks he can do whatever he wants because he's the highest average in the league.

In my Tuesday league there have been a couple of cases where a pinsetter knocked over a pin or a ball jumped out of the gutter, but its non-sanctioned and everyone knew what the rule about it was, so it was let go. If that happened in my sanctioned Wednesday league, you can bet I'd be letting the guy know that his score was false and that he was cheating.

P.S. No one actually shot a pin with a pellet gun, its just funny to think about.
Posted by: AmpleSound

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 09:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Lefty
Originally Posted By: AmpleSound
Heck I got burned, last season, on a strike because the 5 pin wasn't in there... Wish I would have known I could shoot it over!


It's not that you can shoot it over.. you have to shoot it over.


Interesting, and go figure none of my team mates knew anything about this. Also the other team didn't care to step up and say anything... I was stringing strikes too, maybe that's why they kept hush hush LOL.
Posted by: Timotheus

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 10:12 AM

Yeah rules say that anytime a ball is thrown with a pin missing the ball must be re-rolled, however I believe it is also illegal to not make it known to the bowler who's turn it is so that he can re-roll. If my memory is correct, its considered cheating to not tell someone they have to re-roll a ball due to a missing pin and then say later that that person rolled a ball with a missing pin and let the score count, especially once the scoresheet is signed.

There have been a few times where I've allowed someone to throw a spare ball after a pin had been knocked over by the setter without replacing the pin, however my stipulation was that I would let it stand if they would have gotten the pin on the spare anyway or I would adjust the score accordingly if it was obvious they would not have gotten the pin.

Actually last week there was a similar situation to this in that someone on the pair next to me left a 4-7 but had a slow messenger come over and knock out the 4 just before the setter came down. No one on their pair saw it so they called to have the 4 placed back on the lane and he would throw at the 2 pin leave instead just the 1 pin leave. When I told them that he had a messenger come over and knock the pin out they had a short discussion and all agreed he would keep the 8 pinfall as it was and go from there. No one cheated but they all talked it over and came to an agreement in a respectful manner.
Posted by: Lefty

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 10:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Timotheus

There have been a few times where I've allowed someone to throw a spare ball after a pin had been knocked over by the setter without replacing the pin, however my stipulation was that I would let it stand if they would have gotten the pin on the spare anyway or I would adjust the score accordingly if it was obvious they would not have gotten the pin.


This is a bad idea because it leave room for interpretation. Take the time to have the pin reset and do it right.

Quote:

Actually last week there was a similar situation to this in that someone on the pair next to me left a 4-7 but had a slow messenger come over and knock out the 4 just before the setter came down. No one on their pair saw it so they called to have the 4 placed back on the lane and he would throw at the 2 pin leave instead just the 1 pin leave. When I told them that he had a messenger come over and knock the pin out they had a short discussion and all agreed he would keep the 8 pinfall as it was and go from there. No one cheated but they all talked it over and came to an agreement in a respectful manner.


There's really nothing for them to talk over. They don't get to decide what pinfall to use. If no one sees it, you do NOT set the pin back up. You go with 9. If someone sees the machine hit it then you stand it back up. There's no vote about it.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 10:25 AM

As in a game of Poker, the hand plays itself. Even if the player reads his cards wrong, the table reads them correctly. Just like in bowling. If a rack knocks down the pin, anyone can attest to it, not just the bowler or the opponent.
Posted by: Timotheus

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 10:44 AM

It does leave it open to interpretation, which is why I'd only let that happen on a 2 or 3 pin leave with the pins next to each other like a 1-3 or 3-6-10. Anything that had a gap or could have many situations where a leave is highly possible I would make sure the pin was replaced.

That is true, but the league isn't that serious where something like that is really worth squabbling about. Its USBC sanctioned sure, but its really just a company league, there aren't any PBA card holders or local pros or instructors that bowl in it. Rules are rules but sometimes its just not worth fighting over, and he's not a guy that does stuff like that all the time. I'm sort of defending him here but to me, given all the circumstances, its not a big deal. If it was a tournament or PBA sanctioned event, or a guy that is disrespectful and dishonest all the time then I'd definitely be making a stink about it.
Posted by: Odyssey912

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 12:56 PM

Some of these scenarios make me glad that we can review "last pin fall" when there is a question about the pin setter knocking pins down, etc. Causes a lot less arguments when you see it replayed rather than heresay.
Posted by: Brandon510

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 07:46 PM

The bowler should of had the pin re-spotted. I have stopped people on there approach if i do see a pin missing. I have seen pin falls down and never have seen bowler not get it re spotted. I have never seen stopped anyone im not bowling against. But one of my friends will and he has - i have not see many challenge the decisions to re -spot or re-rack.
Posted by: Silent Mike

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 01/08/08 10:44 PM

People bowling against and with him saw it. He just acted like it didn't matter, this is a "fun" mixed league so MOST people aren't willing to get into it knowing his attitude. I'm not the type to get involved 3-4 lanes down but some comments he had directed at a team member's first 11 in a row series got our attention. From now on there will be extra eyes on that pair, if I see something it will be brought up.
Posted by: Fin09

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 02/11/08 04:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Timotheus
It does leave it open to interpretation, which is why I'd only let that happen on a 2 or 3 pin leave with the pins next to each other like a 1-3 or 3-6-10. Anything that had a gap or could have many situations where a leave is highly possible I would make sure the pin was replaced.

That is true, but the league isn't that serious where something like that is really worth squabbling about. Its USBC sanctioned sure, but its really just a company league, there aren't any PBA card holders or local pros or instructors that bowl in it. Rules are rules but sometimes its just not worth fighting over, and he's not a guy that does stuff like that all the time. I'm sort of defending him here but to me, given all the circumstances, its not a big deal. If it was a tournament or PBA sanctioned event, or a guy that is disrespectful and dishonest all the time then I'd definitely be making a stink about it.


Always have the pin respotted so the correct pins are standing. You never want to leave anything open to interpretation here.
Posted by: Smooth23

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 02/11/08 06:58 PM

Heres a good question. What if you leave something like 2-6, but the 2 actually moves say, 5 boards right and remain standing(seen it happen), then the pinsetter knocks it down? If you were to have that re-spotted, you'd be at a disadvantage whereas if the pinsetter hadn't knocked it over..
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 02/11/08 10:27 PM

If the pin setter knocks it down it is to be placed where the pin originally was. So in your example it would be placed back in the two spot. Now had it slid into the 3 spot and was picked up you shoot at it as it sits. The pin is still considered the two. I've had the 7 slide into the 5 spot, and the 5 slide into the 7 spot and seen dozens of others.
Posted by: kagekikr

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 02/12/08 07:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Timotheus
It does leave it open to interpretation, which is why I'd only let that happen on a 2 or 3 pin leave with the pins next to each other like a 1-3 or 3-6-10. Anything that had a gap or could have many situations where a leave is highly possible I would make sure the pin was replaced.

That is true, but the league isn't that serious where something like that is really worth squabbling about. Its USBC sanctioned sure, but its really just a company league, there aren't any PBA card holders or local pros or instructors that bowl in it. Rules are rules but sometimes its just not worth fighting over, and he's not a guy that does stuff like that all the time. I'm sort of defending him here but to me, given all the circumstances, its not a big deal. If it was a tournament or PBA sanctioned event, or a guy that is disrespectful and dishonest all the time then I'd definitely be making a stink about it.


Even on the spares you mention, as well as any two/three pin spare, chopping a pin off is highly likely. Just have it set back up, it really isn't something that should be debated. If the league is sanctioned, do it. In my opinion, it IS a big deal. As you mentioned, this is a sanctioned league and the outcome of this shot will in turn affect the bowlers average. Any tournaments, whether local, state or even national will use this bowlers average which in the above scenario is being falsified. Don't you think that is a big deal? I have seen too many times where 1 pin makes the difference between winning a championship and losing one. Just ask Chris Barnes (sorry Chris, I had to.) As far as a pin setter knocking down pins, or noticing missing pins in a rack, anyone who see's it is obligated to inform the affected bowlers of the situation and if they try and say that it doesn't matter, then it's time for a little USBC Rules 101. If you aren't the type that likes to be outspoken, then let a league officer do the explaining, but you need to make the call as soon as you see the infraction. USBC Rule 329 covers all of these areas nicely...


6a. Legal Pinfall


Pins to be credited to a player following a legal delivery shall include:

1. Pins knocked down or off the lane surface by the ball or another pin.

2. Pins knocked down or off the lane surface by a pin rebounding from a side partition or rear cushion.

3. Pins knocked down or off the lane surface by a pin rebounding from the sweep bar when it is at rest on the pin deck before sweeping dead wood from the pin deck.

4. Pins that lean and touch the kickback or side partition. All such pins are termed dead wood and must be removed before the next delivery.

No pins may be conceded, and only pins actually knocked down or moved entirely off the playing area of the lane surface as a result of a legal delivery may be counted.


6b. Illegal Pinfall


When any of the following occur, the delivery counts but the resulting pinfall does not:

1. A ball leaves the lane before reaching the pins.

2. A ball rebounds from the rear cushion.

3. A pin rebounds after coming in contact with the body, arms or legs of a human pinsetter.

4. A pin is touched by mechanical pinsetting equipment.

5. Any pin knocked down when dead wood is being removed.

6. Any pin knocked down by a human pinsetter.

7. The player commits a foul.

8. A delivery is made with dead wood on the lane or in the gutter and the ball contacts such dead wood before leaving the lane surface.

9. A delivery is made with dead wood on the lane or in the gutter, and a pin, after coming into contact with the dead wood, knocks down one or more pins.


If an illegal pinfall occurs and the player is entitled to additional deliveries in the frame, the pin(s) illegally knocked down must be respotted where it (they) originally stood before delivery of the ball.


8. Dead Ball


When a dead ball is called, the delivery does not count and the correct pins must be respotted. The player is allowed to rebowl that delivery.



A ball shall be declared dead if any of the following occur:

a. After a delivery, attention is immediately called to the fact that one or more pins were missing from the setup.

b. A human pinsetter interferes with any standing pin before the ball reaches the pins.

c. A human pinsetter removes or interferes with any downed pin before it stops rolling.

d. A player bowls on the wrong lane or out of turn, or one player from each team on the pair of lanes bowls on the wrong lane.

e. A player has physical contact with another person or moving object as the ball is being delivered and before delivery is completed. In such case, the player has the option to accept the resulting pinfall or have a dead ball called.

f. Any pin is moved or knocked down as a player delivers the ball but before the ball reaches the pins.

g. A delivered ball comes in contact with a foreign obstacle.


All of this AND much more can be found on the bowl dot com website. Learn the rules and abide by them, no matter how irrelevant you may think it is.It's all about integrity.
Posted by: kagekikr

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 02/12/08 07:14 AM

That last post was getting really long and I was afraid some might skip it, and I wanted to touch on another common issue. All too often I see bowlers throwing shots while there is dead wood in the field of play. Most of the time it is in the channel, but on occasion I have seen where people will shoot at spares with dead wood on the lane. As referenced in a rule above, dead wood MUST be removed prior to throwing the next shot. I know many will say that it doesn't matter, I am not going to come anywhere near it, and infact, some time ago I actually had a guy yell at me for having dead wood cleared out of the right channel before I shot at a ten pin. This guy really surprised me, as he is a really good bowler, and as such, one would think that he would respect the rules... not always. I proceeded to tell him about a teammmate of mine earlier that season who had a pin in the gutter just in front of the ten pin. He chose not to clear it, and I was walking back to the settee area just as he released his ball. I watched in disgust as the ball traveled towards the ten pin and just before arriving at it's target, the ball which was VERY near the edge of the lane, struck the dead wood. I have NO DOUBT that despite being on the edge of the lane, this ball would have cleanly spared. Nope. Dead Ball. Nine, miss. We lost the game by 5 pins. Anyway, this guy was still ticked as now my dead wood was cleared, and I have to tell you, I got up on that lane praying to make that spare because I didn't want to walk off that lane after all that commotion with a big whiff. I made it, and I think I made my point.
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 02/12/08 11:14 AM

I've watch half a game bowled with dead wood sitting in the gutter at a house thats easy to do it yourself. Hit the re-rack button for that lane and then throw a house ball down the gutter to clear it and it never registers as you need to hit the other reset button to clear the deck and works pretty much the same way. It wasn't in my league and I think it was before I knew much about the rules.
Posted by: okorimbo

Re: What would you do? (cheating) - 02/13/08 03:03 AM

[That is true, but the league isn't that serious where something like that is really worth squabbling about. Its USBC sanctioned sure, but its really just a company league, there aren't any PBA card holders or local pros or instructors that bowl in it. Rules are rules but sometimes its just not worth fighting over, and he's not a guy that does stuff like that all the time. I'm sort of defending him here but to me, given all the circumstances, its not a big deal.] Suppose you were playing soft ball and someone missed a base, or football and the runner steppeds out of bounds by an inch or so....do you ignore it or call the rule?