Carry down makes the lane pattern longer?

Posted by: mrthang

Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/18/17 10:07 PM

Hi guys,

I join my local league this week and have found out one thing. The original oil pattern is 39 feet. We bowled 8 games, lane moving after 2 games. And as the games went on, I had an intuition about the lane carry down because the ball seems to skid more and left me lots of 7-5 split though I throwed it with lots of forward roll (less rotation angle) to make the roll happen earlier. My target is stand at 16 board, throw 9 board at target and roll the ball out to the 7 board.

At the end of the competition day, I went down the lane and OMG! Oil carries down up to 43 feet with a lot of straight line. So I went home and come up with a theory:

Game 1: the lane is still 39 feet
Game 2: the lane will switch to 41 feet (So i need to adjust my target on 41 feet pattern)
Game 3: 41 feet
Game 4: 42 feet
Game 5: 42 feet
Game 6,7,8: 43 feet

Do you think this is a good solution? I'll test it with today's league (day 3).
Posted by: W9JAB

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/19/17 11:25 AM

I saw a video, of a new oil that was supposed to stay put, not carry down or get picked up by your ball.

The clip I saw, the ball cut a wake in the oil like a boat, and the wake closed after he ball passed.

This is not the video but I think it's the product:

Also on page 19 of the Kegel PDF:

You find all kinds of lane oil's.

So to the point, With all of the technology in synthetic lubricants and polymers, WHY DO we still have a problem with this? livid

Posted by: djp1080

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/19/17 01:47 PM

MrThang, I think I'm experiencing similar things in our senior league. The night before there is a ladies league and may guess is that the majority of these people throw plastic balls down the middle of the lane. So this takes what oil there is and moves it down the lane a bit making our typical house shot of 39 feet look more like its 41 or 42 feet.
My shiny bowling balls skid too far down the lane and don't make it back to the pocket effectively using my normal technique. So I brought two other balls with the polish taken off using Abralon pads. One was dulled with a 3000 grit pad and the other a 2000 grit pad. I struggled all morning nonetheless.
My normal shot either missed right or barely hit the 1 and 3 pins. If I moved right, it hooked way too much. I missed lots of right hand spares as I usually throw a hook which made my scores plummet. frown
My guess is that I'll have to move to the left and swing a matte finished ball out and allow it to get into a roll earlier to defeat the carry down oil. Either that or use a less aggressive shiny ball and come up the back of the ball more while aiming at a point more toward the center of the lane than I'm used to.
Our place uses Kegel lane conditioner and a fancy machine to put it down. It's just that they don't oil up the lanes fresh for us seniors...
Posted by: RGR

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/19/17 04:33 PM

That is also my biggest problem oil and oil carry down. Like I said before I like to throw straight down 5 board, should not be that much oil there but lately there has been, ball not coming up and hitting headpin or just touching it. Decided to go into my closet way in the back and pull out my primal rage remix which I haven't used in over a year, never had to. Decided to use it after the first game, and went from a 159 to a 189 and 191 not bad for me considering the lanes. It did not mind the oil that much. Did miss a few spares because it hooked more than I expected on a few shots.
Posted by: mrthang

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/19/17 10:28 PM

djp1080: You read my mind. The situation here is quite the same like you. But i found out one thing, If I still stay at my position (stand 16 shoot at target 9 and leave the ball out at 7), with more axis rotation and less speed, the ball will steer back to pocket really strong and carry. If I use more forward roll the ball seems to hit the pocket light and leave me 7-5 split. Have you tried this solution? Moving in does not give me more consistency frown

Moreover, on my lane, there are also UFO Spinner guys who throw the balls straight. This makes the situation worse.
Posted by: mrthang

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/19/17 10:32 PM

Hi RGR: I try throwing it down and in. It works for a while but then the oil at the middle part of the lane breaks down, and it make my ball hook sooner. If you throw down-in, it's really hard to get more axis rotation on the ball. And forward roll hit light. It's really crazy to me. i tried it. frown
Posted by: mrthang

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/19/17 10:34 PM

Jesus! THis is exactly what we need!
Posted by: Fin09

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/19/17 11:32 PM

Our eyes can play tricks on us- what you may perceive as carry down may very well be oil depletion from the front of the lane. If your ball encounters friction before it reaches the end of the pattern, it will bleed off too much energy and have noting left on the backend. You'll see minimal hook and weak hit, but it's not from carry down.
If you are trying to play up 5 on a house pattern, your ball is going to stand up before the arrows and be rolling much straighter than you would like.
Today's equipment picks up oil from the front part of the lane, but since the track is flaring, it's not laying it back down on the back. Instead, your ball is absorbing some of it, with the rest ending up in your towel or on your shirt.
Carry down will happen to an extent with plastic being thrown, either as a strike ball or as a spare ball, but your hig flaring piece will eventually cut through that, too.
Try moving in and don't send the ball out as far- you'll burn up too much energy when they get touchy, and you'll leave tons of corner pins.
Posted by: champ

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/20/17 02:45 PM

Fin is on the money here guys (naturally, he's a top level bowler.) Carry down does exist, but only to the extent that people are throwing plastic balls down the middle toward the headpin. It doesn't really exist in the exit area of bowlers using reactive balls. That's due to the fact that modern reactive balls flare a lot, and a fresh surface of the ball is continuously in contact with the lane.

Its very hard to train your eye to see roll out as opposed to assuming its carry down, and its even harder to convince your brain. But that's what is happening. You've carved a dry spot at your feet, and the ball is losing its hook potential before it even crosses the arrows.

As the night goes on, first you'll notice your carry getting worse. Then you'll notice your miss room disappear. It can get to the point where you feel totally lost because you have to throw a dead perfect shot to strike. Most people convince themselves that they've somehow forgotten how to bowl in the last two games. Not the case, you've just missed the move.

The next time you think you're seeing carry down, ball down. Trust me. You will see that ball get through the fronts cleaner, make a sharper move to the pocket, and once you're lined up with it you'll find your miss room and carry have returned.
Posted by: rrb6699 (RayRay)

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/20/17 08:44 PM

if you strike on fresh pattern from whatever line you choose to play, then notice that you left a 10 pin (rh), there are things you can do to differentiate between carrydown and burn up or more specifically, the ball entering the roll phase too soon and hitting flat.

1) if you have a ball cover that you can see the ball and how it rolls, you can see if it is spinning and not entering the roll phase or if it starts rolling very quickly. I have several balls with swirl coverstocks. my guru master is easy to tell if you hit oil or not. the coverstock will "turn to a blur" when the ball is rolling out (burning up). but, if I see it trying to recover and the cover colors do not blur, I know its because of oil.

2) look who you are bowling with. what balls are they using and are they playing into your line. inconsistent results start happening when the heads are getting beat up. when you encounter this, it changes the ball roll even slightly.
Most people see this but it doesn't register. Most of the time we think we are throwing the ball wrong. If you think you threw the ball correctly, and you noticed you're having a hard time controlling the pocket, then you can assume that heads are becoming inconsistent.
this is where it pays knowing where the other Bowlers are playing - especially the boards they are hitting in the heads...this becomes very important.

If nobody is playing near your line you can probably move a board maybe two left or right and find a consistent reaction again. Try it. With a little luck that's all you'll have to move.

If that doesn't work, time to ball down so you can get through the heads cleaner. However, you may still have to adjust your target line to the right a little more and be more direct. It just depends on the night and what works.
Don't be afraid to try things. If you try and fail, most likely you will fail by not trying something different anyways. So, what's the difference right?

if you make a bad decision don't panic. just make sure you are still throwing the ball right with good execution above all else. by losing your execution you will lose your ability to make logical sense of what is happening on the lanes. worst thing you can do. it's hard to remember this when trouble hits. I know.

line up, throw the ball properly, stay relaxed, watch what happens, adjust.

if you still bowl poorly you know its not from throwing it badly. its from not reading the lanes. maintaining proper form and knowing you are executing is something positive you can still take away from the night. it just means you need to work on reading the lanes. not work on your physical game.

forget, forget, forget the bad results.... remember remember remember to throw it properly. it will help you out a lot. focus on each frame bcause nothing else matters.

Posted by: djp1080

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/20/17 11:20 PM

Thanks Champ and RayRay.
Just a follow up. Went to the lanes today and they likely didn't dress the lanes from the night before. Expected similar results as before.
I'm a converted full roller and work to keep my hand behind the ball as I'm doing my best to throw a semi-roller. I find myself struggling with my hand position on both the beginning of the swing and the back swing.
Tried to get my hand to face towards the wall as a righty (i.e., towards the right). The ball came off my hand much better today and didn't have any problems getting through what was left from the day before.
Found that by keeping my speed down helped, too.
Looking forward to seeing how things go for me on Wednesday next week now... smile
Posted by: BOSStull

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/22/17 10:20 AM

Originally Posted By: champ
But that's what is happening. You've carved a dry spot at your feet, and the ball is losing its hook potential before it even crosses the arrows.
Not many people address the oil depletion at your feet because normally that is where the highest concentration of oil is. But there is depletion there. If you bowl at a Brunswick shop you already have 18-24 inches of no oil from the foul line so the oil is being depleted at a faster rate than normal at the beginning of the pattern.. I started bowling in another house that has a similar house pattern but the big difference is the oil starts with 4 in. All of my equipment seems to have more hook on the backend then at the Brunswick house. In reality what I think that is really happening is that more energy is saved and not used to getting past this early dry area. I started bowling at 2 houses this year so I am still experimenting at the new house. At Brunswick the last 2 weeks I have gone back to my higher RG Symmetrical balls to overcome this early friction with pretty good success. So when Champ made this statement I kind of connected the dots as to what I actually may be seeing between the 2 houses.

Here is a link from Slowinski about oil depletion at the end of the pattern and adjustments that can be made.
El Dorado & El Diablo: Understanding Good and Bad Friction
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/22/17 11:34 AM

Here is a link from Slowinski about oil depletion at the end of the pattern and adjustments that can be made.

This is an excellent article that highlights some of the trouble I was having after game 1 earlier this season when I was starting league using weaker equipment and playing near the 2nd arrow with everyone else. Once the early friction started to form, I was moving in but I was worried about making too large of a move since a pattern change had me convinced that my older equipment wouldn't come back if I moved in too far (I should have known better and just tried it.) When I took advice from here, I made a larger move towards a deeper line I used to play before the pattern change and it worked great. I then got my Vintage DZ and I can start league at 3rd arrow with it. I have it to myself most nights, and Friday was a great example. Halfway through game 2, I left a 4 pin on what I thought was a good shot. The end of the bad friction got dry enough for my ball to jump. Made a 3-2 move to get to the same spot with a larger launch angle. It hit flush again and I stayed there the rest of the night. Getting away from that bad friction greatly reduces the amount of moves I have to make.

Posted by: 6_ball_man

Re: Carry down makes the lane pattern longer? - 01/28/17 12:14 PM

I hate to even think of carry down in the resin era, BUT I do bowl in one place where my first move is always out. I do need to take into account the environment of the league...If I am bowling with people tossin' plastic down the middle, that will certainly effect the way my ball reacts and needs to be accounted for.