How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls

Posted by: mrthang

How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 01:24 AM

Dear guys,

I have a situation which needs your points of view. I am solving an oil transition problem which is:

"Carry down appears mostly in my league competition. I usually us a solid coverstock bowling ball (my Storm Optimus Solid) to solve the carry down. It works but sometimes it can not hold the mid lane if the mid lane is getting tight or begins to dry out. If it can pass the mid lane perfectly, carry down is just a breeze. Even on a short 35 feet oil pattern - 23.6ml total volume, carry down damage my score a lot and it makes me miss the pocket many times."

So I am thinking of a hybrid coverstock bowling ball which is Storm Lock hybrid. I have learnt that Hybrid coverstock can help the ball pass the mid lane and retain enery especially when the mid lane is gettting tighter (or dry) and still give us strong back end to deal with the carry down oil down lane.

Am i right? Correct me if you think i am wrong please.

P/S: my arsenal: Optimus Solid, Optimus Pearl, Ebonite Cyclone, Motiv Sniper.

Thank you very much!
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 02:00 AM

Consider thinking of the whole lane as 3 separate parts. Heads, mid-lane and back-ends. For each bowler, based on style and abilities, each of the 3 areas will have a length and width that the bowler must match up their skid, hook and roll phases to.

Carry-down simply elongates the hook phase length and shortens the roll phase length. The result are shots that may recover but recover too late.

Going to a more aggressive cover stock may get a ball to recover better but the ball is still going to recover too late. Unless a bowler has lots of rev's, they'll hit the pocket but leave lot's of soft 10's.

I'd recommend drilling their ball different. I'd drill their ball to skid less and transition to hook sooner to shorten the hook phase length giving the ball more time to roll before contact with the pins.

Here's a personal example. I have 2 Storm 'Locks'. One is drilled 50 x 5 x 50 and one is drilled 45 x 4 x 35.

The first ball works fine on a wet dry pattern in early games but slowly as lanes change, the hook phase gets longer and the ball begins to recover too late. I'm still hitting the pocket, I'm just not carrying those hits. By switching to the other ball, the hook phase gets shortened and the ball finishes earlier eliminating all the week 10's.

Both balls have the same cover and cores. It's the drilling that corrects the problem, not the surface. The idea is too get more of the ball in contact with the lane on each subsequent flare circle.

I'm not saying a more aggressive surface won't work, but if the ball is drilled the same as a ball that won't finish soon enough, the bowler will still be face with a drilling that wants to finish too late. Ball surface can make a ball break harder, but if the ball is already too far down lane, the entry angle will be too wide and the result will be less than desired.
Posted by: mrthang

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 02:43 AM

Great idea! buddy. I have to say it's logical! It's been a long time i receive a great lesson like this. Thanks a lot! I like the idea of drilling the same bowling ball with different layout.

One more question, what is your benchmark bowling ball?
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 08:17 AM

I'm not sure what you mean by benchmark ball. Like many bowlers, I own a bunch. I have a 4 ball arsenal that I put together for the lane condition I expect and carry a 5th that I don't bring in just in case.

Where I bowl we have a Jekyll and Hyde reaction. We shoot 4 games in a 22 team league. Lanes 1-12 hook pretty good but 13-22 don't. It's the same oil pattern but the lane surfaces came from another house and 1-12 came from an area in the other house that was used more.

A ball that will strike in game one on the left end will leave a
2-8-10 on the right end. So, my arsenal changes with the pair of lanes I'm bowling on.

I can't say that a person could buy 3 identical balls and just drill them different and that's it. It's not that easy. Where I bowl, the carry-down appears in game 2 and may last for 15 frames, but eventually the lanes will break down forcing bowlers to move left with their feet or to choose a ball with less surface.

How far left a person can move is dependent on style and the amount of hand they get into their shots. I'm 69 and can't step around the ball return anymore, so I'm limited to shooting 13-17 at the arrows. That far left aggressive balls will flare-out, so I keep my rev's up by going to a less aggressive drilling as well as a less aggressive ball surface. I also will switch from an asymmetric ball to a symmetric ball to elongate my hook phase.

I try to control my entry angle. I think too many bowlers become obsessed with a big hook. As a person ages, speed drops, RPM's drop, axis rotation drops and a person has to become smarter not stronger.

My latest endeavor is to unhinge my wrist at the bottom to increase RPM's with less effort. My new hero is a woman, 'New Hui Fen' from Singapore. Nobody gets more on the ball with less effort than her.

Mo Pinel has a video out where he talks about a ball by Radical called 'Fix'. I'm not sure I buy the hype around the ball, but his discussion about ball reaction phases and controlling the lengths of those phases really got my attention. Here's a link;

https://www.facebook.com/radical.bowling.technologies/videos/1075633965890108/
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: 82Boat69
I'm not sure what you mean by benchmark ball.


I'm a little surprised about this since you are very knowledgeable. Someone else posted this article in a different thread, it's the best definition I found online.

http://tamerbowling.com/what-is-your-benchmark-ball/

Mark
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 09:13 AM

Where about in Vietnam are you located? I spent some time there in 1969 from Cua Viet in the north to the Cau Mau in the south and all the way around into the Gulf of Siam and the Island of An Thoi.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 09:29 AM

By the definitions in your link, I guess I don't have a 'benchmark ball'. All my balls have the same 'fit' but they all have different 'Perfect Scale' and 'dual angle' values.

I don't use a 'benchmark ball' to read the lanes. Of the 3 I bring in with me, I will throw the one I know is the most aggressive. It may not be the same ball week-to-week.

If I'm bowling on lanes 1-2 which are always hooking, a 900 Global 'Black Ops' may be the first ball I try, but if it hooks too much, I'll go right to a 'Cyclone'. If I'm on 9-10, my first ball may be a 'Lock' drilled 50 x 5 x 50. If I'm on 21-22, I may use a 'Lock' drilled 45 x 4 x 35. I let the lanes tell me what ball I can use, not the other way around.

Over time, I learn which balls to bring in based on the pair I'm bowling on. The one ball I own that feels the best all the time is the oldest ball I carry. It's an old Columbia 'Blue Dot'. The fit of all my equipment is based on the fit of that 'Blue Dot'. I guess I'm more of an experimenter than a technician.
Posted by: Joe Bowler

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 04:05 PM

Bowlers have a lot of interesting theories. Some of them even sound scientific. I often tell them do whatever works for you. The confidence it gives you might be enough to make a difference.

But, in reality, do minor layout variations make any practical difference in ball motion? USBC and other studies suggests that it does not. More importantly, other factors like small surface adjustments, far outweigh any layout changes.

Below is a recent article published in Bowling This Month, that takes the USBC study a step further.
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowling...ng-ball-motion/
Posted by: djp1080

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 04:23 PM

I've been keeping up with the articles on BTM. Pretty interesting.
Just like I noticed myself recently, maintaining your ball is quite important. Keeping your ball from getting oil logged or getting that oil out of the ball can go a long way to having good reaction. Being able to recognize more quickly what may be happening to your reaction and why can help you make changes to improve your scores...
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 07:12 PM

I agree that ball surface or lane surface creates the most ball reaction. The USBC's BMS demonstrates that if you're willing to accept their findings based on the limitations they applied to their study.

Assuming USBC has got it right, would it not also make sense that drilling a ball to get as much of the ball in contact with the lane on each revolution will maximize it's potential reaction? This is a classic min/max problem. The bowler must find that place where they get maximum friction but scrub off minimum revolutions in the process. I don't remember reading where USBC attempted to find that balance.

Can the same ball drilled 2 different ways have 2 different reactions, despite ball surface and lane surface? If a difference does occur, What caused it?

Even after watching Mo Pinel's video for the 'FIX' I discount ball numbers as major factors in the reaction of balls I buy. On the other hand, I definitely buy into the idea that we can change the length of each phase by drilling a ball to control where transitions start based on the oil pattern.

According to Pinel, the 'FIX' can shorten the hook phase by simply going Pin up or Pin down. Drilling it symmetric or asymmetric. They seem to have some numbers that prove their theory. Why would they stake their theory and company reputation on B.S.?
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 10:46 PM

Originally Posted By: 82Boat69
Can the same ball drilled 2 different ways have 2 different reactions, despite ball surface and lane surface?

This immediately reminded me of this video. I hope posting it here is not an issue as I know that the website associated with the video has a url that is banned by the forum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPJSmtr75Ts

It shows what you are talking about with only changes in x-hole location.

Mark
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/10/16 11:04 PM

"But, in reality, do minor layout variations make any practical difference in ball motion?"

From your video, it would appear minor layout variations can make a difference in ball motion. Was that your intention?
Posted by: mrthang

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 02:09 AM

THanks Mkirchie. I am figuring out my benchmark ball. I think i should be a hybrid coverstock one. I am thinking of 'Lock' as my next coming ball.
Posted by: mrthang

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 02:12 AM

I live in Saigon where we have quite a lot of bowling lane. I know all the place you were wink These are some best bowling lane in Saigon Vietnam. You can have a look:

http://blog.happybowlers.com/review-san-bowling-dream-game-tan-phu-tai-sai-gon/

http://blog.happybowlers.com/review-bowling-tai-sc-vivo-city-sai-gon-quan-7/

http://blog.happybowlers.com/bowling-tai-saigon-super-bowl-truong-son/
Posted by: mrthang

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 02:16 AM

Hi Joe,

You mentioned about Ball surface change. This is what i wondered for a very long time. If you use grit pad to change the surface of your bowling ball, then next time, you keep changing it, and changing it. So by the end of some time, how could you define it as a ball for which oil condition? We may get lost with that ball. I am wrong?
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 02:29 AM

Been to Saigon a couple of times. Lived there for 2 weeks once. Unfortunately, back then, there weren't any bowling lanes. All the places I spent time in were more easily accessed by boat than by roads. The Cau Mau was almost uninhabited. Today its a huge tourist destination. Same for Phu Quoc. Best fishing in the world :-)
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 06:27 AM

Originally Posted By: 82Boat69
From your video, it would appear minor layout variations can make a difference in ball motion. Was that your intention?


Yeah, that's what I wanted to show. They've done a decent amount of other videos, some of them are interesting and others are plain silly.

Mark
Posted by: Joe Bowler

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Mkirchie
Originally Posted By: 82Boat69
From your video, it would appear minor layout variations can make a difference in ball motion. Was that your intention?


Yeah, that's what I wanted to show. They've done a decent amount of other videos, some of them are interesting and others are plain silly.

Mark

Drilling what appears to be 1-1/4 inch wide by 3 inch deep hole is not what I would consider a minor layout variation. That has the potential to alter the core shape and drilled Diff/Int. Diff.

On the other hand, varying Pin to PAP distance between the 3 to 5 inch range, especially on an asymmetrical ball, and VAL and Drilling angles by 5 to 20 degrees, are what I would consider minor variations that generally produce negligible differences, especially compared to sanding the ball one grit level rougher/smoother.

The guys that produced the video are interesting alright. They put together a different video suggesting location of the CG doesn't matter, then asked USBC to repeat the experiment with their throwbot. When they didn't like the results, they created a third video throwing the balls on concrete until one broke in half. All of these were a different company's balls, that had previously produced a video suggesting CG location (positive/negative side weight) does matter, and an attempt to discredit them. The way I see it, it's all politics and advertising, not science.
Posted by: Joe Bowler

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 10:20 AM

Originally Posted By: mrthang
Hi Joe,

You mentioned about Ball surface change. This is what i wondered for a very long time. If you use grit pad to change the surface of your bowling ball, then next time, you keep changing it, and changing it. So by the end of some time, how could you define it as a ball for which oil condition? We may get lost with that ball. I am wrong?

Yes, surface needs to be maintained to be effective and produce the desired result for a particular lane condition.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 10:51 AM

My experience is based on a very long PAP. Early flare rings are a little longer than most. Everything I throw wants to break early. For me with my speed, a 90 degree Drilling Angle won't skid much further than a 50 degree drilling angle. This would back-up what you're saying.

However, more acute drilling angles definitely cause my ball to transition much earlier, even on oilier conditions. But, I have to combine the narrower drilling angle with a shorter pin-to-PAP. That combination is what works for me.

Narrower VAL angles help, but I what I observe may not be anything other than a transition that occurs sooner and a little quicker.

My experience may be anecdotal. But, I can throw the same ball on the same lane and with one see skid and hook, but roll is almost non-existent. With the other ball, I see all 3 phases clearly.

Two Storm 'Locks', 50 x 5 x 50 and 45 x 4 x 35 react very different for me.

shorter skid,
Posted by: Joe Bowler

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 11:16 AM

My personal experience is also based on a long PAP. Mine is 6-1/4 left, 1-5/16 up. However, my primary layout is 97-1/2 Drilling Angle x 3-3/8 Pin to PAP x 41 Angle to VAL. Those numbers place the Pin precisely 3-3/8 from my PAP and 6-3/4 from the center of my thumbhole. For most balls, symmetrical or asymmetrical, that produces the most track flare and ball reaction of any layout without a balance hole. The 6-3/4 from Pin to center of thumbhole is significant because it places the largest hole in the ball directly in the side of the core which increases the drilled Int. Diff and Total Diff.

My preference these days is not to vary the layout, but to vary balls and surfaces. If I was a staffer, and limited to certain balls, I might be more inclined to vary layouts, but I find it unnecessary with the huge variety of balls available. And, I am confident knowing I am using the strongest layout for my release specs, along with a familiar hook shape. Btw, that layout is not for everybody, as it has the potential to flare over the thumb for bowlers with over 300 RPMs.

Years ago, when I first started drilling my own equipment, I experimented with a huge number of different balls and layouts until I started to see a pattern emerge what scored best for me. It was around that time I purchased Blueprint and it confirmed what I knew intuitively. If I had only purchased it sooner, it would have saved me thousands of dollars.
Posted by: 82Boat69

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 11:32 AM

I use to do the same. Everything was 50 x 5 x 50 and I just changed balls. When I started drilling my own, I began to experiment. I don't get anywhere near as much hand in the ball as when I was young. If I drill a ball too strong, it just flares out. I've tried strong layouts on weak balls, and while they don't flare out, they still hit pretty weak. I'm also down to 14 pounds. I only get 14 MPH at the pins on a good day.
Posted by: Mkirchie

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/11/16 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Drilling what appears to be 1-1/4 inch wide by 3 inch deep hole is not what I would consider a minor layout variation.


True, I was only thinking about location, not so much the depth. I think it was too early in the morning when I posted.

I was disappointed with their 3rd video on the CG. When I first saw the thumbnail on youtube, I had no idea that it wasn't really a serious test.

Mark
Posted by: djp1080

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/13/16 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
My personal experience is also based on a long PAP. Mine is 6-1/4 left, 1-5/16 up. However, my primary layout is 97-1/2 Drilling Angle x 3-3/8 Pin to PAP x 41 Angle to VAL. Those numbers place the Pin precisely 3-3/8 from my PAP and 6-3/4 from the center of my thumbhole. For most balls, symmetrical or asymmetrical, that produces the most track flare and ball reaction of any layout without a balance hole. The 6-3/4 from Pin to center of thumbhole is significant because it places the largest hole in the ball directly in the side of the core which increases the drilled Int. Diff and Total Diff.

My preference these days is not to vary the layout, but to vary balls and surfaces. If I was a staffer, and limited to certain balls, I might be more inclined to vary layouts, but I find it unnecessary with the huge variety of balls available. And, I am confident knowing I am using the strongest layout for my release specs, along with a familiar hook shape. Btw, that layout is not for everybody, as it has the potential to flare over the thumb for bowlers with over 300 RPMs.

Years ago, when I first started drilling my own equipment, I experimented with a huge number of different balls and layouts until I started to see a pattern emerge what scored best for me. It was around that time I purchased Blueprint and it confirmed what I knew intuitively. If I had only purchased it sooner, it would have saved me thousands of dollars.


I've read an article from 2012 I think from Blueprint regarding flare potential of bowling balls. They picked three balls (strong asym., medium asym. and a symmetric) with high differential ratings. It seems to me that if one wanted their ball to flare well they'd pick a drilling angle of 50 degrees. For an asym. ball they'd pick a pin to PAP distance somewhere between 4 1/2 to 5 5/8ths and for a symmetric ball 3 3/8ths. For a VAL angle they'd pick one on the lower end of the scale like 25 degrees. This would be a 2:1 ratio of drilling to VAL angles. Am I understanding this correctly?
I just had two balls drilled recently and their layouts were pretty close except one was an asym. and the other was a symmetric. The two balls were the Dark Legend and the Wreck-It. The Wreck-It seems to have a stronger back end. My guess is that I should have asked the PSO to take the VAL angle down from 50 degrees to 25 or 30 degrees on the Dark Legend and increase the pin to PAP distance from 4 to 5 5/8ths or so. Then the Dark Legend might have had the flare advantage... Hope I'm on the right track...
Posted by: Joe Bowler

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/14/16 06:38 AM

Originally Posted By: djp1080
I've read an article from 2012 I think from Blueprint regarding flare potential of bowling balls. They picked three balls (strong asym., medium asym. and a symmetric) with high differential ratings. It seems to me that if one wanted their ball to flare well they'd pick a drilling angle of 50 degrees. For an asym. ball they'd pick a pin to PAP distance somewhere between 4 1/2 to 5 5/8ths and for a symmetric ball 3 3/8ths. For a VAL angle they'd pick one on the lower end of the scale like 25 degrees. This would be a 2:1 ratio of drilling to VAL angles. Am I understanding this correctly?
I just had two balls drilled recently and their layouts were pretty close except one was an asym. and the other was a symmetric. The two balls were the Dark Legend and the Wreck-It. The Wreck-It seems to have a stronger back end. My guess is that I should have asked the PSO to take the VAL angle down from 50 degrees to 25 or 30 degrees on the Dark Legend and increase the pin to PAP distance from 4 to 5 5/8ths or so. Then the Dark Legend might have had the flare advantage... Hope I'm on the right track...

I think the link below may be the one you are referring to.
http://blueprintbowling.com/Documents/Bowling%20Ball%20Track%20Flare%20Explained.pdf

However, be cautioned on making personal decisions based on the general findings. The tests were intended for illustrative purposes, for a particular set of release specs, with particular bowling balls, and may not be flare safe for other bowlers, or static legal without an exceptionally long or short Pin, or without adding a balance hole.

For my preferred layout, based on my release specs, I have found it easy to accommodate various balls in the typical 3-4 inch Pin to CG range, with 2-3 ounces top weight, with a balance hole being optional rather than mandatory. And, in Blueprint testing, it typically outperforms other layouts.

While Blueprint is useful for seeing general trends, it is most valuable when you plug in your particular grip and release specs, the particular ball you plan to drill, and the oil pattern you plan to use it.
Posted by: djp1080

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/14/16 11:09 AM

Yes, that's the one. My grip spec. is 5.5 over and 15/16 up. Most of the balls I have similar specs to what you said and a good share of them have balance holes added.
I've played with Storm's VLS spreadsheet a bit. Have taken the results I got to the PSO and he's agreed that the choice is pretty good.
From the flare article by Blueprint one can conclude that the drilling angle doesn't affect symmetrical balls much at all, but the pin to PAP distance appears to have a greater effect.
The drilling angle seems to affect asym. balls more than symmetrical balls. The VAL angle affects both.
As one changes the VAL angle you can see that the pin buffer distance changes.
I'm going for a lesson either later this week or early next. I think that I'm likely speed dominant, but my speed has come down and my revs have increased a bit. I might be close to balanced, but I think I'd like to get the totals of drilling and VAL angles down a little from what some of my balls have today.
Thanks for your comments. Oh and BTW I'm on a THS. Just trying to learn and understand things better...
Posted by: 6_ball_man

Re: How to make use of Hybrid coverstock bowling balls - 11/20/16 09:14 PM

Originally Posted By: mrthang
Hi Joe,

You mentioned about Ball surface change. This is what i wondered for a very long time. If you use grit pad to change the surface of your bowling ball, then next time, you keep changing it, and changing it. So by the end of some time, how could you define it as a ball for which oil condition? We may get lost with that ball. I am wrong?


I do not surface at the hall...I have a spinner at home and keep track on a printed spreadsheet what I have done and when. This way I can mark which surfaces work for which balls and mark off attempts that produced poor results...

YMMV - mine certainly seems to.