2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League?

Posted by: aoiten

2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/28/10 02:45 PM

My own question follows this statement and Q/A from the USBC rule book. The rules state the following for YOUTH bowlers:

"A bowler using a two-handed delivery will establish an average with two hands. When the bowler changes to a one-handed delivery, they must establish a new average using that hand."

Under Commonly Asked Questions, there seems to be a contradictory answer.

Question: "A bowler is using the two-handed approach. The bowler's dominate hand is the right hand. Can the bowler use the right hand for spares?"

Answer: "Yes, since both deliveries are with the same dominate hand, the bowler did not change his delivery and therefore, is not in violation of any USBC rules."

So, my question is, can a YOUTH bowler establish a two-handed average using a two-handed strike shot, then switch to a one-handed spare shot like Osku?

Reference: http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/...Established.htm
Posted by: Reconbbs

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/28/10 03:06 PM

Yes, they should be able to.
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/28/10 03:09 PM

I would contact the rules department through bowl.com. They would be the best chance of getting the correct answer.

I have a feeling the answer would be no though since youths have to establish a new average when going from two handed to one handed. I believe that rule might actually have been in effect when the two handed release being referred to was the between the leg/granny style with no dominant hand and not the Belmo/Osku style of today.

There are still many rules that need to be updated in the rulebook due to changes in the game, but often are not addressed or get voted down at the annual convention.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/28/10 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Calvin Pistorio
I would contact the rules department through bowl.com. They would be the best chance of getting the correct answer.

I believe that rule might actually have been in effect when the two handed release being referred to was the between the leg/granny style with no dominant hand and not the Belmo/Osku style of today.


Right, I think I need to write to the USBC.

The other "style" you mentioned is covered in the CAQ.

Question: "A bowler decides to throw at a spare by delivering their bowling ball between their legs. Would this be considered a change in delivery and a violation of Rule 118b?"

Answer: "The bowler has changed or deviated from their normal delivery which is a violation of Rule 118b. This rule provides a penalty of forfeiture of the individualís/teamís game in which this action occurred."
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/28/10 04:16 PM

That's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about the youth rule you quoted. I believe that rule was originally introduced when a younger kid that could only throw an eight pound ball using both hands, usually in a between the leg swing/release was able to start bowling more "conventionally" with a one handed swing and release.

In the case of adult bowlers they can do what Oksu does, but couldn't change to release the ball between the legs unless that is how they always bowl.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/28/10 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Calvin Pistorio
That's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about the youth rule you quoted.


Ohhh!!! You mean the part about establishing an average with two hands? I thought that was the updated part! Hmm... Well, I copied my question to [email protected] . Answer to come within 1 to 3 business days.

Here's another CAQ that supports the change between one and two hands.

Question: "A player started league bowling right handed, but later decided to use a two handed approach. Is this a change of delivery and in violation of Rule 118b?"

Answer: "No, as long as all deliveries are made with the right hand, this would not be a violation of Rule 118b."
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/28/10 10:16 PM

No, the updated part was the CAQ dealing with using one hand for spares. This had to be addressed with the big push of the two handed style.

Posted by: leftykev

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/28/10 10:43 PM

There may be a two handed style during the approach, BUT all two handed style bowlers, have a one handed release, since their balance arm, without exception, moves away from the primary arm just before the release, thus the bowler still has a primary hand to make their delivery.

Good luck trying to restrict a bowler, young or old, from trying to say their primary one handed delivery is anything but just that.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/28/10 11:11 PM

Originally Posted By: leftykev
There may be a two handed style during the approach, BUT all two handed style bowlers, have a one handed release, since their balance arm, without exception, moves away from the primary arm just before the release, thus the bowler still has a primary hand to make their delivery.

Good luck trying to restrict a bowler, young or old, from trying to say their primary one handed delivery is anything but just that.


There is a technique that is mostly used by kids that could be considered a complete two-handed release. They pull the supporting hand across the top of the ball to get it to spin more. My son does that often when he plays around two-handed, even though I discourage it. (Maybe BECAUSE I discourage it. hehe)

Ah, the balance arm. My attention was drawn toward the balance arm too late today to see if our new two-handed bowler kid is extending the arm out. Next time I'll check.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/29/10 08:19 AM

Seems that a bowler must establish an average, bowling either right handed, left handed, or using both hands on the strike ball. But, then on spares, the bowler may only use the hand that is dominant on the strike ball.

And, to almost all 2-handed bowlers, one hand is dominant. Call that hand the one that supports the ball or the hand on the side of the bowler where they swing.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/29/10 04:39 PM

I feel that Calvin's view is the most consistent with the spirit of the rules. If I'm not mistaken, any combination of one or two hands should be acceptable as long as the dominant hand is being used every time.

The exception is the between-the-legs method in youth leagues, which might also extend to adults. That's the part that is causing my confusion because the wording and intent is not clear to me. I also don't feel the need for that rule.

I'd like to get a written answer to clarify everything. So all I can do is wait. I'll say one thing though, I've seen worse things than a switch from one to two hands during league. heh
Posted by: Calvin Pistorio

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/29/10 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
Seems that a bowler must establish an average, bowling either right handed, left handed, or using both hands on the strike ball. But, then on spares, the bowler may only use the hand that is dominant on the strike ball.


An average isn't calculated just by strike balls though so the average can't be established that way. In adult leagues you are allowed to go from two handed to one handed and back as long as the same dominant hand is used, even on strike shots. It's the Youth leagues that has the stipulation.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/29/10 05:39 PM

No, an average is not calculated by only the first ball. But, how a bowler rolls the first ball deterines what type of bowler they are, right, left or 2-handed.

Let me be clear. This IS a new Youth League Rule. A Youth bowler has to maintain a book average by whether they use only right, only left or whether they use a 2-handed release. And, this is only the first ball, by definition.

The succeeding rule is for spares where a bowler has to use the dominant hand from the first delivery.

So, a 2-handed bowler, supporting the ball with their right hand cannot use a 1-handed delivery with the left hand for spares.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/29/10 09:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
No, an average is not calculated by only the first ball. But, how a bowler rolls the first ball deterines what type of bowler they are, right, left or 2-handed.

Let me be clear. This IS a new Youth League Rule. A Youth bowler has to maintain a book average by whether they use only right, only left or whether they use a 2-handed release. And, this is only the first ball, by definition.

The succeeding rule is for spares where a bowler has to use the dominant hand from the first delivery.

So, a 2-handed bowler, supporting the ball with their right hand cannot use a 1-handed delivery with the left hand for spares.


Sounds correct for the youth league. Still, it seems more discriminatory than anything. If the first ball determines whether the bowler is one-handed or two-handed, yet ADULTS are allowed to switch at will, the rule cannot apply to ADULTS. If the rules don't apply to adults, how is it fair to limit YOUTHS with such a rule? Shouldn't it be the choice of the individual, maybe along with the advice of their coach?

I wonder if golf would ever have a rule that if a golfer swings with one hand, said golfer would have to ALWAYS use only one hand. That is, a YOUTH golfer. Makes no sense.
Posted by: leftykev

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/29/10 09:39 PM

Now I understand better....

Just because someone (adult or youth) has a two handed delivery, does not give them the right to switch hands at will for a single handed delivery, since there are very clear rules for choosing and staying with a primary hand for delivering the ball.

It sounds like the youth bowler or their parent or adult assumed they could circumvent the rule to their advantage. It doesn't work that way...

Oh well, there will always be cheaters looking for an advantage.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/29/10 10:13 PM

Cal, the dominant hand strike/spare rule has not changed in either Youth or adult. The new rule isolates the 2-handed delivery separate from a left or right. A Youth bowler cannot switch between 2-handed and single handed in a match. Just as any bowler cannot switch between left and right.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth League? - 08/30/10 05:02 PM

YYYYYEEEESSSS!!!! Pasting the response from the USBC on this issue.

Dear Bowler,

This is in response to your email below. (Same as my original post.)

The youth rule you are referring to is for youth bowlers who push the ball between their legs with both hands (mostly pee wee bowlers not strong enough to hold the ball).
That is considered a two handed delivery and the bowler must maintain a separate average.

For other bowlers, like Osku, who use the two handed approach, they can switch back and forth from the two handed approach and one handed delivery at any time.


Should you have any questions, feel free to contact us.

Derek Eoff
Rules Counselor
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth Lea - 08/30/10 11:13 PM

(mostly pee wee bowlers)

That is not what is being done at our center. A separate average is being kept for Bantam and Junior bowlers too.

I guess, rather than do it for most, they are doing it for all. I guess that was their interpretation.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth Lea - 08/31/10 09:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
(mostly pee wee bowlers)

That is not what is being done at our center. A separate average is being kept for Bantam and Junior bowlers too.

I guess, rather than do it for most, they are doing it for all. I guess that was their interpretation.


Are you referring to the between-the-legs delivery? If so, a separate average is the required. (Not that I understand or agree with that.) If you are referring to the Belmo-style two handed approach then they are mis-interpreting the tules and should be corrected. An incorrect interpretation of the rules might discourage many future two-handers in their larval stage.

Notice the wording of the e-mail. The writer used the terms "delivery" and "approach" somewhat carefully. The between-the-legs method was called a two-handed delivery while the Belmo style was called a two-handed approach. Belmo still delivers the ball with his dominant right hand.
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth Lea - 08/31/10 10:41 AM

I agree that the Belmo/Osku style is a two handed approach with a one handed delivery. There is an obvious dominant hand in that style, where the between the legs two handed release there is no definitive dominate hand.

I think the rule makes sense, as these rules are in place to encourage fair play, as well as to maintain the integrity of averages.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth Lea - 08/31/10 12:03 PM

aoiten, this is a strange situation. 2-handed, between the legs was allowed to keep the interest in bowling. Not only in Pee /wee, but in bantam also. But, it was the intent of the Junior league instructor to gradually teach a 1-handed approach as the kids were physically able.

I guess, this rule takes into account that at some time, the children will convert to 1-handed, and a separate average has to be maintained.

then, it is fairly common that Junior bowlers will try a 2-handed
approach. The Juniors are told they cannot switch between 1 and 2 hands. But, must stay with 1.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth Lea - 08/31/10 02:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
aoiten, this is a strange situation. 2-handed, between the legs was allowed to keep the interest in bowling. Not only in Pee /wee, but in bantam also. But, it was the intent of the Junior league instructor to gradually teach a 1-handed approach as the kids were physically able.

I guess, this rule takes into account that at some time, the children will convert to 1-handed, and a separate average has to be maintained.

then, it is fairly common that Junior bowlers will try a 2-handed
approach. The Juniors are told they cannot switch between 1 and 2 hands. But, must stay with 1.


I think there's needs to be a shorter term to describe the between-the-legs technique. Let's call it BTL.

I'm a little confused by what you wrote. If I'm confused about that and the rules originally, I'd suspect that others might be confused or misled as well. Then those people will go on to misled youths. So, we need to get this straight.

It seems reasonable, but unfortunate, that young people would be hearded into the one-handed corral because that's what one particular coach prefers. Or even if 95% of people prefer it. As far as I go, I will make sure the youth leagues where my son and his two-handing friend goes fully understand the rules.

I'm fighting for kids' rights to bowl the way they choose (within reason). hehe
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth Lea - 08/31/10 02:43 PM

There is a significant difference in bowling with two hands between your legs and bowling with two hands in a full approach. The standard approach with two hands should be using the same average as the one handed approach as both have the same release with the same dominant hand. It is no different than changing hand positions in order to trick the ball into doing something different.

The between the legs shot is a completely different game as you are not moving in an approach, nor are you using a dominant hand, therefore you cannot say whether the bowler is right or left handed. This is why the average has to be separated because it keeps people from being able to use that as a way to switch hands during the season.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: 2-handed strikes, 1-handed spares in Youth Lea - 08/31/10 03:15 PM

Originally Posted By: sk8shorty01
There is a significant difference in bowling with two hands between your legs and bowling with two hands in a full approach. The standard approach with two hands should be using the same average as the one handed approach as both have the same release with the same dominant hand. It is no different than changing hand positions in order to trick the ball into doing something different.

The between the legs shot is a completely different game as you are not moving in an approach, nor are you using a dominant hand, therefore you cannot say whether the bowler is right or left handed. This is why the average has to be separated because it keeps people from being able to use that as a way to switch hands during the season.


Thanks. It's just that the terminology used in the rules isn't that clear. The rules make BTL sound the same as Osku style.