Reverse Grip

Posted by: aoiten

Reverse Grip - 06/13/10 06:19 PM

Say you have a ball that you roll thumbless. Said ball hooks massively. Then you find that, if you reverse your grip and actually roll the ball with the thumbhole in the front, the ball will roll fairly straight for spares. Would it be legal to do so?

Initially I though, yes, why not? Then I thought about the rules for static weights and the proposed 1" from palm CG rule. Is there a rule that would prevent the use of a reverse grip?
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/13/10 09:01 PM

All holes drilled in the ball have to be covered by the delivery hand. Even if the thumb is not used.
Posted by: BigFootkid

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/13/10 09:20 PM

Now, what if you only put your thumb in your thumb hole? Your fingers will be over the holes, but not in them. I saw a trick shot that way and the ball just skid until it found a dry surface and started its forward motion. Would that way be legal?
Posted by: aoiten

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/13/10 10:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
All holes drilled in the ball have to be covered by the delivery hand. Even if the thumb is not used.


Ah, so if there is no thumbhole at all, then maybe the weights would come into play?
Posted by: Jay R.

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 02:38 AM

There's the static weight thing, as well as what Dennis said. If there was no thumb hole I'm pretty sure your "grip center" is the bridge. As long as the ball was legal both ways and there's no thumb hole I'm sure you could flip it.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 09:12 AM

Don't see anything stopping you from doing this without a thumb hole in the rules. It basically is taking advantage of the offset weight favoring the opposite motion of your delivery hand. Like a righty using a ball drilled for a lefty.
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 09:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
All holes drilled in the ball have to be covered by the delivery hand. Even if the thumb is not used.


No, you just have to show that they can all be used for gripping. They don't have to be covered.

Static weights would be the tough part - left/right and finger/thumb weight can only be 1oz difference, but top/bottom can be 3oz. So, you could be swinging that 3 oz into one of the other 2 zones. But, does the grip center change if you have a drilled thumbhole, but throw with the grips upside down?


Personally, I could not fit comfortably my middle finger into my ring finger grip, so it wouldn't matter.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 10:40 AM

From USBC rules discussion:
a bowler must only be able to reasonably demonstrate that all gripping holes can be used for gripping purposes simultaneously.

The demonstration showed the thumb hole covered by a thumb laying on the ball. Therefore, indicating it was in the grip area. So, if the thumb hole was outside of the grip, it is an illegal throw. If the thumb hole is able to be covered, it is legal. You cannot simultaneously grip a thumb hole if you turn the ball around.
BTW, this has to be done with 1 hand only, the delivery hand.

There was no discussion on not having a thumb hole.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 10:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Jay R.
There's the static weight thing, as well as what Dennis said. If there was no thumb hole I'm pretty sure your "grip center" is the bridge. As long as the ball was legal both ways and there's no thumb hole I'm sure you could flip it.


OK, what about this: Place the CG around the fingerholes and call the thumbhole an X-hole, not used for gripping? Or just have a real X-hole that's no where near where the thumb would be?

Well, I think if there are rules that affect the reverse grip, they could be worked around fairly.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 10:45 AM

Originally Posted By: cgeorg

Personally, I could not fit comfortably my middle finger into my ring finger grip, so it wouldn't matter.


Right, the fingerholes would have to be more symmetrical in size, pitch, and position, but the benefit would be two reactions from one ball.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 11:12 AM

Originally Posted By: BigFootkid
Now, what if you only put your thumb in your thumb hole? Your fingers will be over the holes, but not in them. I saw a trick shot that way and the ball just skid until it found a dry surface and started its forward motion. Would that way be legal?


Only using the thumb is illegal from what I heard. A safety issue maybe. At the same time, it could discriminate against a person without fingers.
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 01:46 PM

Originally Posted By: aoiten
Originally Posted By: cgeorg

Personally, I could not fit comfortably my middle finger into my ring finger grip, so it wouldn't matter.


Right, the fingerholes would have to be more symmetrical in size, pitch, and position, but the benefit would be two reactions from one ball.


The extra 75 bucks that you spend on a plastic ball that goes straight will be made up for when you place one spot higher in a league because your ball fits correctly.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 02:47 PM

Originally Posted By: cgeorg

The extra 75 bucks that you spend on a plastic ball that goes straight will be made up for when you place one spot higher in a league because your ball fits correctly.


At the same time, the finer details of grip fit don't apply as much to a thumbless, 2-handed approach. The fingers just need to get in and back out smoothly. Details of span, differences between left and right don't really matter.
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 04:41 PM

If grip sizes and pitches don't matter, then there's something else wrong with your game.
Posted by: aoiten

Re: Reverse Grip - 06/14/10 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: cgeorg
If grip sizes and pitches don't matter, then there's something else wrong with your game.


Think a little more about it. A 2-handed approach the way Belmonte would do it uses a full-finger grip If you insert your fingers up to the second joint and do not use your thumb, what variables are important? I come up with pitch and hole size. The relative positions of the holes will adjust as you twist the ball left or right in your palm. As long as both holes are just big enough to allow either finger to fit, it should be possible to use them in a normal or reverse grip without a problem.