Your Thoughts

Posted by: MADDOG

Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 03:05 PM

I posted this question in the bowlers lounge and see now that its more fit in this section.

I'm on a mixed leauge where we have 2 women and 2 men but all the league requires is that you have at least 1 female on the team. We are in our 9th week and I wanted to get peoples thoughts about something that has happened on our league.
The other male on my team lost his job and couldnt afford to bowl with us anymore so he had to drop off the team. He was a 168 bowler and I'm a 198 bowler at this time. The women on my team have 125 and 138 averages. It was left up to me to try to find a replacement for the guy and it didnt matter what the average or [censored] of the person was. The team captain is the 138 female and she asked my thoughts about what we should do. To fully make you understand whats going on I'll have to go back 9 weeks to the beginning of the season.
I had bowled with this same team last year and we finished about midway up the list out of 20 teams. The ladys had decided last year that they wasnt going to bowl the following year (This season) so I showed up looking to sub on the leage regardless. When I walked through the door the league secretary said "Man am I glad to see you and I have just the team for you to join." I told him I wasnt looking to join a team but wanted to sub so that I could get my 20 games in to bowl tournaments. He went on to tell me that my old team was still going to bowl this year but one of the ladys on the team had gotten her husband to bowl in my place. I said that was fine and to give me some time to think about joining the league. While I was going around talking to people the man from my old team came up to me and asked me to bowl. I told him "I thought Bea had gotten her husband to bowl so I was just looking to sub. He said no she was only getting him to bowl because the secratery told her that he couldnt get in touch with you. Come to find out the secretary was wanting me to join his was 3rd high average holder last year and I guess he thought I could help his team win. So I told the secretary I was going to bowl with my old team and I could tell by the look on his face that he didnt like that.
So back to today....As I said the man had to drop off the team so the captain asked what I thought we should do. I told her if she could help me pay the vacant spot by taking turns with me paying the empty spot I would find someone else. In the mean time I would get a sub to take his spot. I am a 200+ bowler and bowl on scratch leagues but this mixed league is just practice for me. I had asked one of my team mates from the scratch league to bowl on my mixed team until I can find someone to fill the spot. Well the night he showed up he shot 757 and with my 6 something we won all 4 games. All through that night the league secretary kept comeing up to me asking if my friend was going to join my team. I kept telling him no that he's just subbing. The secretary went on to tell me that I should take the spot as vacant and use the franchise money to cover the vacant spot because thats what its there for. I told him no that I would pay double each night and use a sub for the rest of the year before I'd do that. The next week I had my friend sub again and this time he shot 735 and I shot 650 and again we won all 4 games. The ladys on my team asked my friend to bowl with us full time and he said he couldnt because he couldnt afford it being that he was already bowling 3 nights a week. Well this past week was a possision round and I asked the secretary if I could have a sub the week before. He said yes that I could because its only the first quarter and wont effect anything. So I had my friend come back out to sub again. This time when I walked in the bowling alley they called a captains meeting. In my heart I knew what it was all about. I had a feeling that people wasnt going to like the fact that I had my friend bowling on my team. I didnt go to the meeting because I wasnt a captain but when the captain came back she asked me to guess what it was about. I told her and she said I was right. They wanted to get a vote on raising the handicap. The handicap was already voted in at the first of the year for 100% of 210. Now they have voted to change it to 100% of 250. My captain was the only one not to raise her hand. The choice was made because of one mans average of 250 and 2 700 weeks. We went on and bowled but I was not happy about the change at all. In fact it got into my head so bad that I didnt bowl as good that night. My friend didnt bowl as good either and we lost all 4 games. I'm not upset about the losing but what I am upset about is that its a handicap league who thinks they can change the handicap through the year to benifit them. This is the way I see it.....My friend is not a 250 bowler but more like a 210 bowler. When they raised the handicap up they gave him 2 pins when he had 0 before the change. Now that he didnt shoot his average the other night his average will drop. Will they call him a sandbagger now and wanna lower the handicap back down? Also could his color have anything to do with it? I say this because there's another man who is white on the league who has his PBA lisence to go PRO and shot 750 the same week my friend shot 757. The same man carrys a 200+ average and has another 200 bowler on his team but they have been losing and are close to the bottom. This same team finished high last year in second spot but nothing was said about that. They made a point in the meeting to call out my friends name and say he's the reason and they feel with him on my team no one will have a chance to win. The league Pres. came up to me that night and asked how we was doing. I said you're about the 5th person in the last 30min to come up and ask that. I told him we was doing poorly and losing. He asked why and I told him we was laying low so that the rest of the league can have a chance. He said "I've been bowling on this league for the last 5 years and my team has won the last 3. If one thing i've learned over that time its not to take any prisoners." I didnt know what that meant but I said "I guess since we beat your winning team 2 weeks ago over 150 pins I can guess you voted to add 40 pins to your handicap." He just walked away. Now I will not bowl on this league next year and thats a fact. This is what I did to fix the problem. I asked my friend if I paid every other week would he join the team and he said "After tonight and I see how they are then yes I'll join the team."
I guess I wanna get some input to see how others feel about this. Does anyone know if this is even leagle to change the handicap up and down to benifit everyone else but my team? The way I see it is like this. Changing the handicap did help the other team last week and they won 4 games. Whats going to happen this week when my friends handicap goes from 2 sticks to 20 sticks and over the next couple weeks it turns into 40 sticks because he's a 210 bowler? I'll tell you.....We'll start winning again and then they'll wanna change the handicap back down to 100% of 210. (Keep in mind we bowled 2 weeks before I got my friend to sub and we was already winning with out him.) When they vote to make the change again they'll be looking for 2 more people on my team because I'll pack up and walk out and my friend will go with me.
Posted by: Smooth Stroker

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 03:24 PM

In my limited experience, usually you raise the handicap average to help the high average bowler. In your case with the handicap being 100 percent of 250 that would killl a high average bowler. The real problem is the 100 percent handicap. That is designed for fun leagues so the average joe or jill can be competitive. If you crave more competition, you should stick to the more competitve high average leagues. Mixed leagues are usually more fun, unless you have some really high average women in your house ( not to say there aren't, so don't kill me Erin ). Whenever I join a mixed league I find out up front what the low average is in the league. That way I know what type of league I'm joining.

To answer your changing the league handicap during mid-season, That happened to me last year. After about 10 weeks, The league President noticed that there were several bowlers above 230 in average. So the league president took a vote on raising the handicap to 90 percent of 240 to make it more fair to the high average guys. Nobody seemed to mind the change much.
Posted by: MADDOG

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 03:46 PM

I wouldnt mind either if it wasnt for the fact that this hasnt been a problem for the last 3 years while the Pres. of the leagues team was winning. His team has won 1st the last 3 years and he was one of the first to raise his hand to vote.
Also the second place team last year has 2 200+ bowlers on thier team this year which one of the guys just got his PBA card. That team is close to the bottom now.
These teams wasnt mentioned as to the reason of the handicap change. It was only because of one bowler subbing on my team and what he had bowled the last 2 weeks. I'm a 200+ bowler my self but bowl with 2 women with low averages and the league tried thier best to get me to go with a vacancy instead of a sub or getting another bowler to join. The first vote was to vote that my buddy couldnt bowl on my team at all .....Why?...Its a handicap league and if they didnt want 200 bowlers on the league they should have stated that in the beginning of the year when they decided to raise the handicap up from 90% of 210 to 100% of 210 and said this is just a 200 and below league. My team finished at the bottom last year and obviously they see my team as a thret this year and wanna do everything in thier power to keep us from winning. I do bowl other leagues such as scratch leagues and high roller leagues. Maybe I'm making a big deal about this for nothing but I'll say this.....When I walked through the door on the first night of bowling this year the secretary came up to me and said this league is falling apart....If he thinks its bad this year wait until next year when my team doesnt come back.
Posted by: BillinPhilly

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 05:54 PM

Wow, what a story. But typical of some leagues I've been in.

There are various handicapping systems. I am returning to bowling again after about a 6 year break. But all the leagues I ever bowled in were a straight 80% of the difference handicap. I never bowled using the 80% or 100% of 210 system. The straight 80% of the difference system favors the higher average teams and players.

The 80% of 210 (or some other imaginary number) system gives the advantage to the lower average players in my opinon. Because I think it is much more likely that a 130 or a 150 average is going to be 40 or 50 pins over his average than it is that a 200 average bowler is going to be 40 or 50 pins over his - by the nature of the game. A 200 average guy is already performing at such a high level that one slip up pretty much costs him his average. A 130-150 average guy has alot more room to get lucky a couple times and rack up a high game over average.

This is another example of the conflicting rules and information that bowling gives us. They encourage us to practice, to try hard, and to raise our averages. Then they penalize you for doing it by helping the lower average beat you easier. And its yet another example of how leagues end up shooting themselves in the foot, and why attendance is down, and why people get fed up and frustrated with bowling.

That said - I personally have always not liked subs. Period. I have always felt cheated when a sub - who is not a member of the team I'm bowling against - comes in and bowls - and bowls well - and causes me to lose games. The only arguments I've ever had in bowling were over subs and their use - and abuse. So I can also see the point of view of the rest of the teams in your league - if the guy bowling 250 is not on your team, and is not a member of your team - why should he be bowling against them in the first place, and why should they all be losing games because of him? It doesn't matter whether he can afford to bowl with you - you said he already bowls in 3 other leagues, so he obviously doesn't NEED to bowl in your league. Not like that's his only bowling.

So while you might feel cheated because they raised the handicap because of your team - remember that other people onother teams are also feeling anrgy and disgusted because they're facing a guy every week who is not on your team who is throwing 700 series and costing them games. Is that fair from their point of view? So some of them are probably saying the same thing - what a lousy league, what lousy rules, they let these guys away with this, and WE'RE not coming back next year!
So it goes both ways. Your secretary and president were probably getting an ear full every week.

I guess it depends on the competitiveness of the league. And your league was apparently pretty competitive, because they originally had the 100% of the imaginary system. They only raised the limit because of your firiend - which is fair and is how that system is supposed to work. The imaginary number has to be higher than the highest player's average. Its really not like they adopted a toally different system on you or made a special rule just to affect you.

The fact the the secretary was asking you to join his team shoul dbe taken as a compliment - you're obviously a good bowler. But I don't think the rule is to spite you because you wouldn't join his team.

Look at both sides of the issue.
Posted by: MADDOG

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 06:24 PM

Broncobilly?....You make some valuable points but I ahev one questions for you. I understand why they raised the handicap but should they have done it based on 2 weeks? I bowl with this guy on other leagues and he averages right with me 200+ but not over 210 and will never have over 210. Both of us last week shot in the 6's in the 3rd week. He decided last week to join our team. So my question to you is...When his average comes down to where it belongs 210 or under would he be called a sandbagger and would they want to lower the handicap? If they do shuffle the handicap for the 3rd time to once again try to stay one step ahead of us is that leagle? Every one can be in a slump and then have 2 or 3 very good weeks if the shot is right but thats why we have an average and your average isnt really leagle until you have 20 games or better. At least thats the way it is to shoot tournaments. Right now after they adjusted the handicap they he still ended up with 2 pins. After last week he'll now have 25 pins...and after next week unless he shoots 700 again (Which I doubt he will) will bring him down to my level at 50 pins. As you say I think he shot him self in the foot.
Posted by: MADDOG

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 06:27 PM

Oh and Bronco....We was still winning before my friend joind the team just using the guy who quit blind average.
Posted by: BillinPhilly

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 06:58 PM

Whether they lower the handicap again or not is up to the league officers and a vote of the team captains. Yes, they can adjust this as many times as they want, and it is legal. As long as the majority of the team captains vote for it. And that is such a high handicap, I'd bet they will lower it again. If I had a high average team, I'd be arguing to lower it until I was red faced.

I agree that 2 weeks of bowling "does not a season make". And over the course of a season, it is natural for somebody's average to go up and down. And the fewer games you have in, the more one low game will affect your average. So no, I don't think anybody will accuse you of cheating or "sandbagging" if his average goes down a little.

That kind of "trash talk" always goes on - "This league stinks, I'm not coming back" and the people saying that are always the first ones to sign up again the following year. I've been bowling off and on for over 30 years, and it's always been that way.

If you have reason to believe the secretary is acting unfair or has something against you, try talking to the league president or vice-president, or better yet, have your captain do it. Your captain is the one who has the authority on your team. There are other officers besides the secretary. But the officers and team captians together make those decisions about handicaps and stuff.
Posted by: BillinPhilly

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 07:07 PM

Oh - I forgot to ask if your league is sanctioned or not. If they're not sanctioned, then ANYTHING goes, and the only rules are the ones they make. If your league is sanctioned, they have to go by USBC rules (used to be ABC/WIBC, now USBC from what I understand). You can dowload a rule book and also get answers to common questions from the USBC's website at:

and read it. It will answer these kinds of questions for you. Every bowler in a sanctioned league should look at these or have them, so you know if what your league is doing is fair or not.

Hope this helps!
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 07:32 PM

Well, I'm a stout anti-100% handicap person. I don't think you can be called COMPETATIVE and demand 100% handicap. The better bowlers are like that because they 1. practise, 2. read materials to gain knowledge 3. stay on top of bowling technology 4. take lessons. Its my opinion that if you are not willing to do any of the above , you cannot balance the scales by demanding 100% handicap. For all those lower average bowlers....get better! Or at least make an attempt to get better.

I too hate subs. We NEVER use them on our team. And always make sure that league rules do NOT allow subs for any position rounds or roll offs. I also think that it is important at the beginning of the season to add to your league rules if subs establish after one week or 9 games or whatever. See if the league rules say that subs establish the first week, then its the league's problem if someone shoots big. But raising the bar for the handicap to 250 at least includes your friend. That had to be done. And its just too bad that he had two career nights one right after the other. Now he'll be dropping his average probably. If I were you, I'd not take that sub on, since maintaining a 240+ average is over his head.

As for USBC and individual league rules. Typically USBC (old ABC) went along with voted in league rules as long as they did not directly go against established ABC play rules. So a league can basically do whatever they want as long as they do it through votes and such. Another rule you might want to suggest to the league is an average cap. I have bowled in handicap leagues where there were average caps. So if the league is made up of mostly lower average bowlers (and don't want high average players) they can set the cap the maintain that vacinity of averages. Say 4 man mixed team capped at 700 or 650. Then subs coming in must have a book average or established current house average , or they are not eligible to sub .

In your situation, I'd try my hardest to find a permanent team member, then all this will go away.

Posted by: BillinPhilly

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 08:01 PM

The problem is that other teams do use subs. And as I said in another post, if I had a dollar for every time a sub who was supposed to have a 130 average came in and bowled 185 all night long, I could probably retire to my own private island.

And when you also take sandbagging into account, yes, there' s plenty of room to cheat. And none of this can be proven - its next to impossible.

One way I know guys do it is to have a bowler who is a friend establish an artificially low average in one league that is not a money league, like a typical Sunday night mixed league. Or they have them establish their average by subbing in the same league. Then they have somebody sit out and call on that guy whenever they need a big win - place rounds if they're not prohibited by rules, as you pointed out. So they get a sub who has an artificially low average come in and bowl well over that - and if one or two guys were sandbagging and keeping their averages down, too, this is an effective strategy. It's cheating, but go ahead and try to prove it.

I always ask for a no sub rule, but the leagues never want to do it, especially in summer leagues, saying its unfair. And I've also been a victim of a team using the "we have to be able to add to get to a full roster" rule, by having their lowest guy quit toward the end, so they have to be allowed to pick up their sub with the artificially low average.

I'm with you, if it were up to me, I'd ban subs altogether. And also yes, 100% handicap is ridiculous, unless its a serious money league, and even then.... I agree 100% handicap does not encourage anybody to get better, and I do believe it favors the lower average bowlers - and that's worse now in this day of reactive resin when lower average bowlers are more erratoc and more dangerous than ever. Som eof these guys will bowl 94 one game and 212 the next. So 100% handicap is really not fair.
Posted by: MADDOG

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 08:58 PM

Well he is a memeber of the team now and we plan to win if nothing else just to over come the odds. I should have told him to hold back and(sandbag) and we wouldnt be talking about this now. I'm not like that at all and thats why we didnt do it. Also if I stick to my own average of players and not join a hadicap league we wouldnt be talking about this right now but I joined to help these 2 ladys win. I also didnt wanna see the same team win 4 years in a row and if I have anything to do with it they wont! Thanks for your thoughts
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 09:05 PM

Well, now that you have taken this guy on as a teammate. You two higher average bowlers should put your heads together and get your ladies to improve. The ability to improve a 120 - 160 bowler (no matter what [censored]) is almost elementary. All they have to do is WANT to improve. And I know the 100% handicap has trained them to not want to do this, but if they improve, you guys will be unbeatable.

Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/08/05 10:49 PM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA"> My captain was the only one not to raise her hand. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">I have done more digging on this.

Did they ask for "opposed"? Was she given the opportunity to raise her hand in opposition to the motion? Because "Roberts Rules" are in effect. And it takes 100% vote to change a league rule that has been already voted in prior, according to USBC.

If she was not given the opportunity to raise her hand an oppose the motion then its not a legal vote. If she was given the option and just didn't vote, well then that's her fault and to your teams' detriment. She's abstained. You might have 10 days to protest. If she was NOT given the chance to oppose. You should contact your association to make sure.

Posted by: MADDOG

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/09/05 01:38 PM

Well yeah and thats the bad news. I too found this rule and or should I say someone else from another board brought it to my attention. I at first remember the captain saying she was the only one not to raise her hand so I called her the other day to ask again if in fact she raised her hand or not. She told me she thought it was a % vote and when she seen she was the only one not to raise her hand she thought she would lose the vote anyway and let it go. They then sealed the deal by making her sign a paper saying she voted with the rest of them. When I told her what I found out she was up set and said she told her self not to sign the paper but she just went ahead anyway. Now I think its nothing we can do because they have it in writing. I told her next time come to me and the rest of the team before voting on something like that first. The only thing I can do at this point is wait until they want to lower the handicap again. Like I said before when his average comes down to be closer to mine he will get more pins and thats going to come back to bite the league once again. This time how ever we wont vote the same to lower it.
As for helping the ladys on the team....I bowled with them last year and have been working with them all along. Funny thing is one of the ladys bowled pretty good the first week my friend subed. She then said we need him on the team because he inspires her to bowl better. Of course I was thinking to my self what am i chopped liver? This kinda got to me because I was the one working with her and got her average up 20 sticks from last year. My buddy bowls one night and people look at him as the bowling god or something. Everyone seems to forget we was winning before him and we would still win with out him.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/09/05 02:15 PM

Sounds like the league Board knew what was going on with that vote. Sounds like they knew she was ignorant of the rules and percentage of votes needed to overturn such a new rule. Or else they'd have not asked her to sign a paper stating she'd voted with them when obviously she hadn't voted at all. Pretty low, IMO

By the way, was every team given a copy of the league rules before the season started and a copy of the USBC playing rules booklet? If not, you may have some more fire power because she was not given the information that would have lead her to an educated decision concerning these proceedings.

Depending on how railroaded your team feels at this point you could all give your two week notice and leave the league.

Posted by: BillinPhilly

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/09/05 08:04 PM

Maddog - some good news!

As I said, I never bowled under the 100% of 210 or 100% of 250 system. So for grins, I plugged some numbers in to Excel to see what the difference would be. I was pretty surprised!

I made up 2 hypothetical teams, Team A and Team B and assigned arbitrary scores. Team B is scratch 85 pins better than team A.

Under the straight 85% system, team A gets 68 pins (80% of 85).

But when it's 100%, it doesn't matter whether you use 100% of 210 or 100% of 250. The overall handicap is still the same, assuming I did this right. Maybe somebody who has actually used this syetm can double check, please?

Avg Straight 100% 100%
80% 210 250
Team A
Mary 110 100 140
Betty 140 70 110
Mike 150 60 100
Jim 175 35 75
575 265 425
840 1000

Team B
Pam 130 80 120
Laura 155 55 95
Paul 165 45 85
Ed 210 0 40
660 180 340
840 1000

660 265 425
575 180 340
85 85 85

Like I said, I never bowled this way, but it seems to me the 2 systems are identical. The handicap is 85 either way. Or am I missing something?

Posted by: MADDOG

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/10/05 02:31 PM

seems like you're missing something....These are the actual scores based on last 2 weeks out of the 9weeks bowled.
First week 100% of 210
Mary 125 average
Bea 138 average
Me 198 average
Buddy250 average
So this means
Mary 85 handicap
Bea 72 handicap
Me 12 handicap
Buddy 0 handicap
2nd week
Mary 125 average
Bea 138 average
Me 192 average
Buddy238 average
100% of 250
Mary 125 handicap
Bea 112 handicap
Me 58 handicap
Buddy12 handicap
I think if they really wanted to make it easier on them selves they need to either (1) change everyones handicap except for my keep changing the handicap up and down to benifit them. My buddy and I was talking last night and decided to not say anything about it anymore and wait until they wanna lower the handicap back down because me and my buddy will be getting sticks. If they lower it back down they would be taking sticks away from us and we'll be back to square one again. This time when they go to vote we wont vote for the handicap change.
To answer your question no we was not given league rules this year for some reason but I'm sure the secretary has them and can give me a copy if I ask for them. I'll ask him for a copy tonight. Also no sanctioned rule book was given out either so I'll also ask for that. As I see it now the handicap change hurt us last week mentaly and on paper but in the long run the change will help us. We'll just have to suffer through the next couple of weeks and wait for my buddys average to level out or someone else on the team to raise up. The only thing that could hurt us is if they lower the handicap back down so we wont have any pins again.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/10/05 02:59 PM

The object to raising the handicap to include your friend's average is so that he does not get free pins in which to miss his average.

When handicapping to 210 and he's apparently 240+ average he can miss his average by 30 pins and get no penalty because the lower handicap covers it. So they had to raise the handicap to include his average. After two weeks of 700s, I'm sure any league would have given your sub some attention. However, I think they handled it wrong. And I certainly think they took advantage of your team captain's ignorance of the rules.

Posted by: MADDOG

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/10/05 03:27 PM

I agree
Posted by: MADDOG

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/11/05 12:18 PM

Well I shot 612 and my buddy shot another won 4 out of 7 points last night.
Posted by: BillinPhilly

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/13/05 08:54 AM

OK, thanks, Like I said, I never bowled using the 100% of the difference system. That's the point I was missing. If his average is 240 and the limit is 210, he's a negative handicap, and they don't take back the 30 pins, they only give him zero. So his team was "holding" 30 pins, so to speak. That makes sense.

If they're using the 100% system, then you can't have that. But again, this is why we allsay we don't like the 100% system. And its why I say it gives the advantage to the lower average guys, since they have more wiggle room within their averages.
Posted by: Bikedad

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/13/05 11:33 PM

Or maybe, the guy who has a 240 average and bowls in a 100% of 210 league has 30 pins up his sleeve all the time. If you bowled against him and made your average then your score plus handicap would add up to 210 while your opponent just bowls his average and gets 240. Maybe he can afford to have an off night and bowl 211, 29 pins down (unlikely) and still takes your points. I bowl in a league that has a 100% of 190 system. The top three or four bowlers all have 190+ averages. That means that any time I bowl against them I have to bowl well above my average (152) to try to get a win (as do my team mates). For some reason, this season has been kinder to the lower average bowlers when coming up against these guys and have managed to take points off them at regular intervals. For the first time in years, they have not cleared out from the pack leaving the rest of us to fight over third palce. Maybe there is a God afterall! I understand that the idea of a handicap league (whatever the system) was to ensure that ALL bowlers would incur handicap pins so that if everyone bowled to their average then they would end up with the same score (in a 100% system). Then it comes down to how well you bowl on the night. The difference in scores equates to the difference in pins over or under your average. So, in saying that, your league has probably set the target about right or maybe even a little low (after that 755!!). The penalty for this system is that it doesn't encourage bowlers to try to raise their averages and this means that the league stagnates as do the participants. The solution? I have none, so I guess we make do with the best of what is available. Good series scores, though. 755... only in my wildest dreams at this stage. I will settle for your 612! Good bowling to all.
Posted by: mrsuthern

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/14/05 12:07 AM

Hmmmm, I'd have to be honest here, trying to keep up with all that was just said. Well I have the equilivant to a brain freeze. I guess I really have never paid that much attention to the whole Handicap "theory". I just go in each league night, our Team checks out our opponents averages and we see who we are gonna line up against idividually. Never put much thought to the handicap totals other than at the beginning or the end of the night. And thats just to see how much we have to cover.
Ignorance is Bliss I guess.
Still backing ya on the way it was handled though MADDOG
Posted by: MADDOG

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/14/05 09:22 AM

Well see the thing of it is that we are [email protected]#$% either way. The 240 average guy is not a 240 average shooter. He's only rolled 12 games so far and has shot 757, 736, 619, 755 and is on a hot streak right now. He has been in a slump for the last few months but has now pulled out of it. He'll come back down to where he belongs and will be closer to my average. We bowl together on another leage as well and we both shoot with in a few pins of each other. The reason I say we are [email protected]%^$# either way is because I could have told him being that he was a sub to shoot around 200 if he could and snad bag to get 10 extra pins. I dont believe in sandbagging and feel people should shoot what they can. Being that the handicap was already 100% of 210 he wouldnt have had any pins and that would have hurt us. I didnt care at that point because I knew he was just a sub anyway. When he came out the second night he shot good again and again we didnt get any pins but for some reason everyone else thought we was winning becuase of him and that wasnt true. We won because of the handicap bowlers on my team (The Ladys) shot over their average but I shot under mine. When they raised the handicap to 100% of 250 they gave the 250 bowler on my team 2 pins and everyone else including me got 50 pins added onto their scores. Now that the 250 bowler has dropped down to 236 last week he got 14 pins. I think if he came in and bowled 200 average and got his 10 sticks they would call him a sandbagger just as they call me for bowling 190 average. When the 250 bowler comes back down to where he belongs between 200 and 210 they'll say he's sandbagging and then will wanna lower the handicap. Either way leagues today want people to come out and bowl but they dont want people to actually get better. Truth is I wouldnt bowl a handicap league at all if we had more scratch leagues here. I have to bowl on a sanctioned league to get my 20 games in to bowl in tournaments. I bowl 2 leagues 1 with the high rollers and high end of the year pay out and 1 with the regular bowlers. When is it right to punish a person for getting better and becoming good? I say if you're not planning on putting 100% effort into what ever you do then you should do it at all. Yes I'm talking to you bowlers who come out each night and complain about everything under the roof except for putting blame where it really belongs......In your self!
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/14/05 01:13 PM

Man! three out of 4 weeks a 700 series. That's great bowling. But even if they had taken 9 games to establish averages, he'd still be what you think of as over his head. Well apparently he's not over his head that much on that league condition. And if he is and starts dropping then the rest of the team has to work to pick up the slack. If you don't have people that want to do that (the ladies) then your team is in trouble. But that's a bad team structure, not the league's fault. I wouldn't have even started in a league that's 100% handicap. But do understand and agree that they had to raise the handicap to incude the highest average bowler.

One thing that might help you though with this overwhelming handicap is to think of the handicap as something that you have 10 frames to make up. When you look at it in frame 1 its like 300 pins in the other team's favor and seems overwhelming. But you have 10 frames to make it up and you are not supposed to make it up until the 9th or 10th frame.

Posted by: MADDOG

Re: Your Thoughts - 11/15/05 02:19 PM

yeah I tell the ladies all they have to do is look at the handicap score and not worry about the reall score because the handicap score is what they need to beat. They're always getting a bunch of pins and between me and the other guy we know we have to bowl at least average or better to win. I look at the handicap as having a 5th bowler to bowl against and that motivates me some....what i really look for is someone to say we are going to beat these guys tonight.....Then its really on!