any and all help needed

Posted by: brunswickbowler

any and all help needed - 03/25/12 06:43 PM




Hey guys just started bowling and I need help so please leave all comments
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 06:09 AM

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your ball doesn't fit properly, or you wouldn't be lofting it 10ft down the lane.

In the from behind clip you can see your swing tense up as the ball is dropped into the swing, this means if you don't squeeze the ball to death then it will fall off your hand.

Can you post a picture of your thumb in the ball and your fingers laid across the finger holes so I can see if your span is even close before I give you any advice past that.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 10:44 AM

i will get a picture of that up today.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 03:36 PM

here are some pictures
Posted by: B-Hammer

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 05:28 PM

Not the best photos, but from img261 it looks way stretched. Do your finger nails hit the back of the hole, with your hand in can you put a pencil between your hand and the ball?

Regarding your videos what were you targeting, and were you hitting your target? Looks like you might have an issue pulling the ball unless that is where you are aiming.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 06:03 PM

not my target at all ball didn't push to the right enough meant to come in on the right side if the head pin so happens it was a lucky strike. and i have never tried to hit a pencil in there, i feel the main problem is getting the ball to push far enough, then when i do it doesn't have enough bite to get back.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 06:06 PM

i can try to get better pics for you guys if it would help just let me know, just trying to better my game thanks. and to answer the previous question i can not fit a pencil between my hand and the ball
Posted by: B-Hammer

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 06:31 PM

Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler
i can not fit a pencil between my hand and the ball


That is a sign that your span is stretched.

If the ball isn't fit correctly it will make doing everything else correctly very difficult.

What are you using for targeting (arrows, dots, pins, other)?

Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 06:54 PM

Mainly I'm trying to get it out to the arrow just right of the middle one assuming the lane doesn't have the 2 dark hash lines then I try to get the inside one
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By: B-Hammer
Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler
i can not fit a pencil between my hand and the ball


I don't think i could fit a piece of paper in between to be honest.
Posted by: metguy

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler
i feel the main problem is getting the ball to push far enough, then when i do it doesn't have enough bite to get back.


Not enough can be said about understanding exactly how your ball is set up. The fact you can't get the ball to finish may simply be that it's not drilled to. I'd like to know a couple things. How close to your grip is your flare rings? Where is your pin relative to your fingers? Where is your CG (this will be a punch mark or some symbol below the pin 3" or so). What ball are you using?
Posted by: metguy

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 09:57 PM

Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler




Those are the most "funkiest" lanes i've ever seen. Wood approaches and heads, then synthetic the rest of the way down. No wonder you lob the ball.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 11:42 PM

to be honest i can not answer those questions because i do not understand what they mean. and i am using a 13 and a half pound brunswick fuze purple pearl
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/26/12 11:47 PM

so if i get my span fixed and get the ball drilled for a more aggressive back end will that help? i did not realize it before but now i can feel that my span is off, because i have like a rough spot at the base of my thumb.
Posted by: B-Hammer

Re: any and all help needed - 03/27/12 12:29 AM

Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler
so if i get my span fixed and get the ball drilled for a more aggressive back end will that help? i did not realize it before but now i can feel that my span is off, because i have like a rough spot at the base of my thumb.


Fixing the span will help you relax and free up your swing. Freeing up your swing will help you be more consistent, increase your revs and control your speed.

Your swing is very muscled right now.

When aiming try to have two targets, a near and far target, it's easy to hit a single mark and still not get to the pocket, with two targets it's much easier to develop a line and then adjust as necessary.

If you haven't seen bowl4fun.com go through Ron Clifton's articles, a lot of those articles can be applied to your game.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/27/12 01:37 AM

Thanks I will do that, I recently finished second in my team league and was inconsistent but when a made these videos I tweeked a few things and after the videos were made I bowled a line much the same as Norm Duke and had success. I guess the reason I didn't know my span was off is because I used to bowl with no thumb.
Posted by: mmalsed

Re: any and all help needed - 03/27/12 11:37 AM

When we talk about a ball fitting your hand, it's because really that's THE most important thing. If your ball doesn't fit correctly, you're going to have to hold onto the ball, which means your using your muscles, and that gets in the way of a natural, pendulum swing.

But I have to use my muscles - well, okay, but not as much as you think. If your ball is drilled to fit your hand properly, you won't have to hold onto your ball. I don't - I can let it hang by my side without holding onto it - but when I swing it, the ball will come off my hand as it releases me.

Note, IT releases ME. I do not release IT. That's what goes through my mind (and not what actually happens, physically, necessarily) - if I focus on the ball releasing me, then I don't grip it and I let it come off my hand naturally. . .

So - the pics.

It was said that it looks like your span is too long. The closest edge of your fingerholes should be about half-way between your finger-seams. This is really very important. Look at some other pics of ball fit on this site and you'll see what we're looking for. . .
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/28/12 11:09 PM

Thanks guys I went to my Driller today and he said my span is perfect and he said he can tell because my finger nails touch the back of the holes, and he said he thinks I'm not putting my thumb all the way in the hole, what does the pencil between the ball and the hand supposed to prove and what other things can I check? I will be bowling on Sunday anything y'all think I can or should try?
Posted by: B-Hammer

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 01:03 AM

Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler
Thanks guys I went to my Driller today and he said my span is perfect and he said he can tell because my finger nails touch the back of the holes, and he said he thinks I'm not putting my thumb all the way in the hole, what does the pencil between the ball and the hand supposed to prove and what other things can I check? I will be bowling on Sunday anything y'all think I can or should try?


It means your span is stretched, which in the modern game means it's wrong. Your nails aren't supposed to hit the back. A pencil should fit between your hand and the ball. If I were to guess he also probably drilled reverse pitch in the thumb hole as well.

It's how balls used to be drilled when the game was based around lifting with the fingers, that's not part of the modern release technique.
Posted by: Hunter

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 10:06 AM

It can be very intimidating for a new bowler to go into a pro shop and have the confidence in telling a "professional" how you want your ball drilled, and that you think they aren't doing it right. I have been there, recently. Until I found this forum and then read many articles on www.bowl4fun.com and bowlingknowedge.info.

I am absolutely no professional, and I could in no way measure my own span or anything. However, because of the knowledge of articles on those two sites, and talking and reading through posts here, I have a much more knowledgeable arsenal to assist me in talking to my driller. In fact, they are happy when someone is somewhat knowledgeable.

They are getting paid to drill, and if you tell them how and why you want it drilled a certain way, then they should oblige. If not, find a new driller.

It comes off much better to a driller when someone says, "Hey there. I am looking to get more backend skid\snap from this ball. Currently it gives me more of a weak arc shot. Can we possibly drill it Pin Up somehow and see if we can get more backend without buying a new ball?"

I am sure that most of the balls they drill are for people who don't care (or don't know) that they can drill differently to get the ball to react differently. They just drill the ball to fit their hand and then send them on their way.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By: B-Hammer


. If I were to guess he also probably drilled reverse pitch in the thumb hole as well.


What exactly does that mean? he said something about i have to hold the ball and when people say the ball should stay on is not true, so im confused can someone explain that as well as what i quotes?
Posted by: Hunter

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 11:02 AM

Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler
What exactly does that mean? he said something about i have to hold the ball and when people say the ball should stay on is not true, so im confused can someone explain that as well as what i quotes?


Here is a Ron Clifton article from bowl4fun.com.
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip39.htm http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip39.htm

Here's a snippit from that article:

Quote:
Thumb pitch:

If you find yourself in a situation where the ball wants to fall off of your thumb no matter how tight you make the thumbhole, then you need to take a look at your thumb pitch. You will most likely need to move the pitch more forward.
Most bowlers have too much reverse pitch in their thumbholes so they never have any chance of throwing a ball without squeezing it tightly. Thumbhole pitch is “trial and error.” The only way you can ever really know the best pitch for your thumbhole is to keep drilling them.
Take an old ball and slug up the thumbhole. Then, drill it with ¼ inch more forward pitch than before and go bowl with it. If the ball comes off of your thumb just fine, then slug it and drill it another ¼ inch forward. Keep doing this until the ball hangs on your thumb. When the ball hangs you know you went too far. Back off to the last pitch drilled.
Once you have the thumbhole set up for the right size and pitch, you should not have to squeeze the ball to keep in on your thumb.
Posted by: mmalsed

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 11:23 AM

Quote:
he can tell because my finger nails touch the back of the holes


Seriously?

Okay, try this - put your thumb in the ball and set your fingers across the holes - your hand should be flush against the ball, but COMFORTABLY (don't squish it). Now, can you insert your fingers into the ball. Look at it with common sense.

Drilling to fit your hand is a science - telling if it's right is NOT. Seriously - it's YOUR hand.

So, take a look - your fingers don't hinge 100% on that first knuckle, and even then they have to curl back toward your hand. It's about 1/4" that they come back . . . try it and see. This means you will have to stretch your hand to get your fingers in your ball and slide your thumb in - that's not good.

What will happen? Tendons will get stretched; you will have to grip the ball to have it stay on (which we all noticed - ever wonder how we knew that? LOL); and eventually your hand and your forearm and elbow will begin to hurt because the ball is not drilled correctly.

My advice, for what it's worth, find a driller who will actually look at your hand, measure your hand, and then drill the ball the way you want it drilled.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 11:23 AM

ok thanks, well i will be going to ask another driller his opinion in my span because my hand lays flat on the ball, i am also guessing i need to add more tape to my ball, you guys are being of great help, i guess i either drop the ball or my wrist is weak because lately i have lost alot of revs but i think im a dropper because when i put extra cup on my wrist i get lots of revs.
Posted by: B-Hammer

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler
Originally Posted By: B-Hammer

. If I were to guess he also probably drilled reverse pitch in the thumb hole as well.

What exactly does that mean? he said something about i have to hold the ball and when people say the ball should stay on is not true, so im confused can someone explain that as well as what i quotes?


Your driller sounds very outdated, most of the advice your going to find on this and other forums is based on a relaxed grip and a free arm swing, those things are hard to get with a stretched span and a death grip on the ball. If you want to continue to improve and take advantage of the current equipment available I would suggest at least consulting with another pro shop on if your fit is correct and also seeking a private lesson for help with the basic fundamentals.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 11:28 AM

Originally Posted By: mmalsed

Seriously?

Okay, try this - put your thumb in the ball and set your fingers across the holes - your hand should be flush against the ball, but COMFORTABLY (don't squish it). Now, can you insert your fingers into the ball. Look at it with common sense.

Drilling to fit your hand is a science - telling if it's right is NOT. Seriously - it's YOUR hand.

So, take a look - your fingers don't hinge 100% on that first knuckle, and even then they have to curl back toward your hand. It's about 1/4" that they come back . . . try it and see. This means you will have to stretch your hand to get your fingers in your ball and slide your thumb in - that's not good.

What will happen? Tendons will get stretched; you will have to grip the ball to have it stay on (which we all noticed - ever wonder how we knew that? LOL); and eventually your hand and your forearm and elbow will begin to hurt because the ball is not drilled correctly.

My advice, for what it's worth, find a driller who will actually look at your hand, measure your hand, and then drill the ball the way you want it drilled.


thanks i will try this. can anybody tell me why i have a bruise on the base of my thumb is this also because of the span and me having to hold the ball? sorry if yall feel like yall are repeating im just trying to learn to the best of my ability so i can know these things for my next ball.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 11:31 AM

Originally Posted By: B-Hammer
Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler
Originally Posted By: B-Hammer

. If I were to guess he also probably drilled reverse pitch in the thumb hole as well.

What exactly does that mean? he said something about i have to hold the ball and when people say the ball should stay on is not true, so im confused can someone explain that as well as what i quotes?


Your driller sounds very outdated, most of the advice your going to find on this and other forums is based on a relaxed grip and a free arm swing, those things are hard to get with a stretched span and a death grip on the ball. If you want to continue to improve and take advantage of the current equipment available I would suggest at least consulting with another pro shop on if your fit is correct and also seeking a private lesson for help with the basic fundamentals.


i think he is a little outdated hes an older guy in his 70s but i will look into another driller thanks for the advice.
Posted by: B-Hammer

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 12:12 PM

Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler
can anybody tell me why i have a bruise on the base of my thumb is this also because of the span and me having to hold the ball?


Yes it's because of the span.

From Ron Clifton: http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/btm05_files/btm5.htm

Quote:
A stretched span pulls hard on the tendons of the fingers, hand and wrist, possibly causing injury, often requiring surgery to repair. The stretched span can also cause problems with the thumb, requiring excessive reverse pitch in the thumbhole and large calluses at the base of the thumb. Don’t make the mistake of making the span stretched tight because you think it adds a few more revs to the ball. Over stretching your tendons is a poor substitute for a good release and you won’t be revving the ball at all if you pop a tendon.
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/29/12 01:11 PM

Thanks, Hammer you have been great as well as everyone else. i will get this span fixed when i have the money, i think my thumb is to reversed i guess i will be two- handing my ball till it can get fixed.
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: any and all help needed - 03/30/12 04:13 PM

I will also just jump in here and agree with everyone else that your driller is drilling you equipment based on information and technology from 20 or so years ago.

Equipment and technology have changed and so should your drillers philosophy over time. Every sport advances with the times, for some reason your driller is simply not keeping up with what he should be.

Yoru span should be relaxed, if you have to hold onto the ball it is from bad fit, whether that is from improper span or lack of tape, or possibly bad technique.

I would get your equipment checked out and evaluated by another driller and see what they have to say. Also, instead of paying about $50-$75 to get that ball plugged and re-drilled I would buy a heavier ball, 13 lbs is really light for a typical male that is your average healthy person.

For reference, I am 5'10" and about 135 lbs and I throw 15 lb equipment, and I can bowl 15 games easily without growing tired. I would assume you could go up in weight pretty easily. Plus it will make it easier for you to not "man-handle" the ball and work on a more fluid and consistent technique.

Good luck!
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 03/31/12 08:40 PM

Thanks, any advice on weight I should go with? I'm about 5'2 210lbs I think I might just get a new ball
Posted by: B-Hammer

Re: any and all help needed - 04/01/12 09:32 PM

Originally Posted By: brunswickbowler
Thanks, any advice on weight I should go with? I'm about 5'2 210lbs I think I might just get a new ball


15
Posted by: brunswickbowler

Re: any and all help needed - 04/01/12 11:45 PM

OK thanks hammer