Frustrated at practice thursday took video today .

Posted by: Rocket

Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/08/11 09:58 PM

Like topic says Thursday I felt like I went backwards a year nothing worked. So today Jordan was at another house with his coach getting ready for a tournament I decided to get some video and see whats going on boy was I disappointed when I watched them.




I thought my arm was bending on my back swing but its just never getting straight so much for free swing. My timing looks like a Clydesdale on ice, my swing doesnt stay on plane I see me looping it out and turning my hand way early coming off the top. Do I need to lean more forward would that help with the bent arm? Oh yeah the side video doesnt show my finish which was bad as well but I left shortly after those shots I was so frustrated with myself.
Posted by: DocLogic77

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 12:00 AM

It's odd, I seen this same hitch in my swing the last time I went. I have no idea where it came from. I can never remember bending my elbow before last session.

I would love to know what causes that to crop up in a swing.
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 12:35 AM

You carry the ball back, in a controlled manner. Your arm never fully extends,thus using the full "wing span" available to you. Once you fully extend your arm, you can start to engage gravity on your side. Until then you are controlling the ball aka muscling the ball. When you muscle the ball you get inconsistencies and its hard to repeat movement. Which is why you probably seem to feel like you go from doing well to ground zero. I would suggest that you learn to free your arm up and extend fully. You need to lock that elbow and let it fall back.

Erin
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 12:39 AM

In addition I think a lot of this bent elbow comes from trying to cup the ball. And you can cup the ball, but you need to use a different set of muscles to do it. Not the arm muscles.

Erin
Posted by: Rocket

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 06:28 AM

Thanks Erin, So I guess a good way to practice at home would be to just drop the ball into my swing and get used to that feeling I guess I was squeezing the snot out of the ball as well if I am controlling my swing that much.

Looks like some appointments with a coach is in my future.
Posted by: OhioBowler

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 07:15 AM

Yeah rocket it looks like 90% from the free arm swing, which is probably causing the balance issue at the end also, and the chicken winging. You may also want to try and get more knee bend,

From the drop away your never reaching full extension.
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 09:08 AM

From your side view, you can see that your ball hand is not under the ball. It is primed to grab it as soon as it falls. Get the ball in the palm of your hand, equally supported by both hands.

Then as the ball falls, your hand is behind, but not under it. Further gripping is required to hold the ball. Keep your back of hand and forearm straight. This will give you a natural cup.
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 09:33 AM

The predominant issue is the bent arm. There is something in the back of your brain saying "You had better hang on tight to this ball, or it will fall off and kill a bus load of nuns". Watch your right hand when the ball leaves your left hand, you will see your hand tense right up as soon as the ball's weight transfers to your right hand. This tension travels all the way up to your shoulder and your arm locks in that position. You need to look into what is making you "catch" the ball.

1. Check your grip, the primary issue in squeezing the ball is that if you don't the ball actually will fly off your hand and kill a bus load of nuns! Your subconscious is usually right with the exception of muscle memory, where you got in the habit of squeezing and keep doing so even after your grip is right.

2. You are having the word "HOOK" engraved into your swing thoughts and you are trying so hard to hook the ball that you aren't having a moment where you are just letting things happen.

The balance issue is your slide foot is going to the left instead of underneath your belly button. The usual suspect is universal soled shoes, if you have a pair of these, burn them and get a decent pair of right handed bowling shoes. If you left foot goes off to the left then the rest of you will fall off to the right simple as that.

The best way to fix this is to bend your right knee low going into the slide, this will shift your body weight to the right to where your left foot will have to slide under to maintain balance.
Posted by: Rocket

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 12:15 PM

Thanks all, Yeah Dennis I noticed the bad hand position at the begining as well. Coach Jim the hook on the brain definetly makes sense up until thursday I was hooking even my weakest ball without thinking about it. Thursday night at practice everything I threw was flat more of a slide action so I definetly changed something Thursday night and must be back to trying to force the hook.

Now that you mention grip Coach Jim I had been concoiously feeling the ball rest down on my palm and feeling comfortable at my setup previous to Thursday and Sundays practice I do not remember checking for that feel then.

And yes still cheap Dexter either hand shoes. As far as fit goes I did have all my equipment checked and changed and that is actually when my hook blossemed 1/4" reverse pitch and shortened up a hair I posted pics after the change. I know all the issues wasnt fit but I hope I didnt miss I simply needed to add a piece of tape or two especaillly after pounding in Jordans head he has to feel that.

I was supposed to start the PBA league the 8th but for now I believe I am going to cancel that and focus on proper setup (balance hand doing the work), swing, and finish. I will get this!
Posted by: TheDemolitionMan

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 01:56 PM

I think you can get rid of the elbow in the backswing by getting your arm straight in the pushaway. In the side view shots, none of them have a fully exstended pushaway. Your arm is bent through the whole swing, it shows the most though in the backswing because instead of using your shoulder as the fulcrum (I think that's the right term) you are using your elbow. I would suggest doing this. When next you're out practicing, practice only your first step. By the time your first step is down your arm should be fully exstended and straight, ready to travel through the swing. Then you can progress and drop the ball into a free swing (still not moving mind you). That way you can get the start of the swing where it looks like you're having the bulk of your problems at and the feel of the free swing at the same time.
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 03:32 PM

If you are going to work on your game this summer, make the most of it and get your grip fixed so you don't have to squeeze the ball to death. Go 1/4" forward to 0 and see if that doesn't feel better. If you find that you end up squeezing the ball again, go another 1/4" forward and so on until you aren't squeezing the ball, and you are able to straighten your arm without the ball slipping from your grip.
Posted by: mmalsed

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 04:43 PM

CoachJim - priceless: "kill a bus load of nuns"
Posted by: Rocket

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: CoachJim
If you are going to work on your game this summer, make the most of it and get your grip fixed so you don't have to squeeze the ball to death. Go 1/4" forward to 0 and see if that doesn't feel better. If you find that you end up squeezing the ball again, go another 1/4" forward and so on until you aren't squeezing the ball, and you are able to straighten your arm without the ball slipping from your grip.


Thats just it coach Jim I dont have to but I clearly was, I can put my hand in leave it relaxed and pick my ball up no problem. I am not sure if you remember awhile back I was complaining about not being able to get my thumb out of the ball and having an unusually long thumb. Then posted pics of my span and everyone was convinced it was stretched a tad, and you suggested talking to my pro about it and my thumb. The pro without me saying anything about others opinions said right away my span was a bit stretched.

Then we discussed my long thumb and he checked how I was clearing my old ball and said definitely need 1/4" rev pitch and could probably go more but to try the 1/4" first. After that is when my ball started looking like it should and all my equipment felt the same.

I do agree I was squeezing the ball but I think you hit the nail on the head when you stated I was trying to force the hook and I believe that's where the squeeze came from.

I will get another Video up soon with me focused on keeping the hand relaxed and not ripping the cover off the ball. Demo you are right I do see the arm never extends fully I will try some one steps here at home before practice Thursday and see how it goes.
Thanks so much again all
Posted by: CoachJim

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 10:07 PM

Pay very close attention to your grip as the ball enters the swing and make sure you aren't catching the ball. If you are then you are going to have to go forward with the thumb pitch and shorten the span 1/8".
Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/09/11 10:10 PM

Though Jim's advise is always more then valid. I see the tensing as more of a desire to HOOK THE BALL. Same with the bent arm, because of trying to cup the ball.

If at release you let the ball fall off your thumb, then your fingers are going to naturally roll through the ball. But your arm and hand have to be relaxed enough to let that thumb get out of there.

Think of that desk ornament...Newton's Cradle.


that's how your arm swing should be.

Erin
Posted by: Rocket

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/10/11 06:44 AM

Thanks again Erin and Coach Jim, Yes Erin I wouldn't argue with Coach Jims advice lol he has helped me and Jordan a ton. Coach Jim I will try to pay attention to that and here at home since these post I have been swinging my ball with no squeeze So I am convinced it was whatever I did Thursday night to kill the hook turned into trying to force it there for leading to the death grip.

Now the bent arm has plagued me for the longest time although looks a lot worse them before. It used to be mainly at the top of my swing on the way back down where I tend to pull down though another bad habit.

So My plan for practice this week is nothing but swing drills Jordan should be with me his coach is going to be at a tournament so that will help as hard as it is to believe I can not feel that bent arm I imagine where I have done it so long it feels normal, so at least I will have a set of eyes to let me know when I am doing it.

Now to convince myself not to care if I throw it in the gutter 100 times its just practice lol
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/10/11 09:39 AM

Most of the time I don't cup the ball. When I do, it's at the top of the backswing, zero gravity point.

Keep in mind that changes in pitch will change your release, in particular the point in the swing at which the ball will release itself from your hand.

Kettlebell wrist curls.

You should be able to swing the ball back and forth without gripping it at all. If not, more tape or a more firm hand position help, but bent elbow is thumbless bowler land.

Posted by: Atochabsh

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/11/11 02:05 AM

For you Rocket....you need to lock your elbow. That will get a full extension in your pushaway and help in your free armswing....IMO.
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/11/11 10:09 AM

Rocket,

I believe CoachJim and Erin are both correct on things you need to be checking. I would also check the shape of your pushaway, if you do not get it smooth (think the ball starting at the top of a ferris wheel) you will want to catch it. If there is a quick change in direction, think ball falling off a cliff) at the end of your push away you will automatically grab on the ball as it will be tricking your brain into thinking it has to catch the ball. By creating shape in the pushaway you will be able to keep the brain from thinking the ball is falling and let yourself realize that the ball is swinging.
Posted by: DocLogic77

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/11/11 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Atochabsh
In addition I think a lot of this bent elbow comes from trying to cup the ball. And you can cup the ball, but you need to use a different set of muscles to do it. Not the arm muscles.

Erin


For me, I think this is the issue. I can only remember feeling my elbow bend during one session and it was my last one. But, I'm a "cupper", and my wrist has gained strength over time. So, I am able to stay under and to the left of the ball until release. But, I think my hand positioning is exaggerated and might be contributing to this elbow bend. Good to know.
Posted by: Rocket

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/11/11 07:18 PM

Ok thanks again all, i do not try to cup the ball consciously but I do try to stay under behind the ball so that makes sense that maybe I am trying to get under/behind from the get go.

Sk you rang a bell in my head and I bet there is a old post running around here somewhere from me where I was working with a coach last year and he taught me to walk by the ball. I can remember part of that was keep the shape of the swing.

Looks like practice tomorrow night is going to be superseded by work hoping to get there Saturday or Sunday and work on this I will get some video then.
Posted by: Rocket

Re: Frustrated at practice thursday took video today . - 05/14/11 12:08 PM

Update, practiced last night with Jordan dang batteries were dead in my camera, someone borrowed my extra set for his Xbox controller but I wont mention names. He did take a video with the cell phone but it was to far away and fuzzy for any real critique.

So took some advice got my fit checked by 2 different pro shops both agreed looked really good, did add a piece of tape.

First thing I worked on was the shape of my downswing just kept taking steps and made sure left hand did the work and I extended fully. Then two steps etc. When that felt good started throwing full shots with Jordan and another person watching. According to them I am much better straight until I start the down swing then I get a bit of a bend, so I must still have a timing issue and I am pulling it down through.

Another issue I noticed from the video I posted on my back swing I was letting the ball get out to the right so I also focused on the swing slot as well.

The shape of my shots did come back to the way they were a couple of weeks ago so that was a plus but I also had really good shots when I did it exactly right only way I can describe it is everything felt effort less on those particular shots.

I have still decided to skip the PBA experience league and work on this issue all summer so I will be primed for fall.

Thanks again for all the tips and I will get some video up as I progress.