Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10)

Posted by: ijohn83

Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/14/10 08:02 PM

Revs still at 180.

Still not getting the hand position I want. Maybe my hip is not getting out of the way making the ball go around it & the hand to the outside???



~ John
Posted by: Time-To-Roll

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/14/10 10:42 PM

John, I watched your video. I think you are doing the same thing I do. That is not clearing your right leg soon enough
Watch your 4th step before your slide it is not going in front of your 3rd step, it is stepping off to the right. Your right leg is in the middle of your swing path.If your stepped more to the left with the right foot in front of your left foot and then made your slide toward center your right leg would be out of the way and allow your swing to be in the slot. This is not all my idea but things I have read on the PBA forum. I plan to work on this in practice this summer. Makes sense to me.
Time To Roll
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 12:19 AM

Thanks Time To Roll I believe you are right. I have worked on this before and it is very hard for me to get that fourth step inline let alone left instead of right of my third step. I'll work on it again.

~ John
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 12:22 AM

Your form looks excellent to me. The release you're doing is not a strong one, but it works consistently. I personally prefer releases where the fingers are behind the ball below the equator.
If you want to use this release, try Atocabsh's advice and "make a fist" while the ball is falling off your fingers. That will increase the revs.
Posted by: GBuck426

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 12:54 AM

It looks to me like your hand is in a strong position at the top of the backswing, but weakens on the way down. Maybe it is your right leg. Look at your release point. It seems almost like your right foot is to the right of your slide foot (slightly). If you can get that leg out of the way, you can keep your swing closer to your body and your hand in a stronger position. I am working on the same problem. Keep at it, you'll be there by the summer!
Posted by: 10PinGaloot

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 02:23 AM

I don't see this as being a leg problem at all. Your thumb is coming out early because you're not keeping the hand behind the ball (fingers at or below the equator) as it falls.

Consider your arm to be a pendulum system, with your shoulder as the pivot, your arm as the rod, and the ball as the bob.
( Pendulum )

The ball is going to fly off your thumb at some point in the swing. You determine that point by maintaining the ball at a certain angle to the pendulum. The ball is attached to the pendulum by way of your thumb. Therefore, the thumb can't be pointed parallel to the rod, or the bob will fall off.

So to sum up, the ball is attached to the pendulum by the thumb at an angle, which is determined partly by your thumb hole pitch and partly by the bend of your wrist.

As stated, your forward/downward swing starts with the hand behind the ball. However, by the time it's at the bottom of the swing, the hand is in a weak position. The wrist is relaxing a little relative to the arm, and so the ball is releasing itself. As it does so, your hand - which is not releasing from your arm - ends up on top of the ball.

Try an experiment: Use a credit card. Take a bowling stance with the card on your palm. Imitate the bowling pendulum swing. Draw back that card in a backswing and then forward in a forward swing, and throw it at a mark 5-6 feet away from you. You can hold onto it on the backswing using your thumb, but on the foreward swing, remove the thumb from the card. If you relax your hand/wrist position, the card will get dummped near your feet. You want to keep the wrist in a position that allows you to throw it farther.

I just tried this with my AARP card and verified it. I can throw my AARP card across the living room, or dump it at my feet, based on my wrist position. You try it!


Posted by: Vini

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 06:00 AM

I am not a rev master, but

I think you are doing everything great except one:
You release the ball (fingers+thumb) at the same time.
The idea is: First thumb than fingers.
It could be a bad fit, but it could be bad muscle memory.

In other words : You need to increase the time from A to B
A- thumb release
B- fingers release
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 12:39 PM

It still looks to me like you are just simply trying to over-power the ball by trying to add revs. If you watch the swing speed, it comes back at a relatively normal pace and then comes down from the top of the swing at mach 1.

I think you should continue to work on the foul line drills and make a conscience effort to stay relaxed and roll the ball. You can see in the slow mo shot at 0:45 that you are hitting up and throwing the ball onto the lane rather than just staying relaxed.

Its going to take a big effort and focus in order to get it down. You are going to have to live at that foul line until you can train your arm to let the ball fall all the way through the swing. You are losing your strong wrist position because your wrist cannot handle 15-16 pounds of force on top of pulling it down that fast, it just bends so you do not get hurt.
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 05:31 PM

Originally Posted By: sk8shorty01
You are going to have to live at that foul line until you can train your arm to let the ball fall all the way through the swing.

I know this to be true.



This is with no thumb until 1:33 working on strong wrist inside & under. When the thumb goes in @ 1:33 I dump the wrist like SpareMe was saying.

~ John
Posted by: spr3wr

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 06:17 PM

John, You need to learn to stop over throwing the ball. Here is a game you should play.This is done with your full approach Every time you hit the 1-3 pocket on your strike ball you move 3 boards left with your feet and 1 board left with target. Each time you move you need to slow the ball down a little to get the ball to hook into the pocket. Your goal should be to move 12-15 boards left and to keep your hand behind the ball.
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 06:47 PM

Originally Posted By: spr3wr
John, You need to learn to stop over throwing the ball. Here is a game you should play.This is done with your full approach Every time you hit the 1-3 pocket on your strike ball you move 3 boards left with your feet and 1 board left with target. Each time you move you need to slow the ball down a little to get the ball to hook into the pocket. Your goal should be to move 12-15 boards left and to keep your hand behind the ball.


All the drills & training games always sound fun to me. That one doesn't sound so fun to me. LOL! Does it work with only 180 revs on the ball? I'll print your instructions out and give it a go.

~John
Posted by: spr3wr

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 07:41 PM

This will be easier to do if you stop standing up at the foul line while the ball is rolling towards the pins. After the ball has hit the pins then you can stand up.
Posted by: JackZ

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/15/10 10:28 PM

I have to agree with Time to Roll that you're not clearing your right leg...and thereby not clearing your hip. If you'd like to try something (got this from Ron Clifton's articles and several folks here), put a long piece of tape on the approach(I'd say masking tape like 3M Blue cause it's non-marking....with the lane folks permission of course), or even do this at home and just walk down the piece of tape until you get that 4th step onto the tape. That should give you the feel you need to kick the leg over when you slide. Once you do this, I think you'll gain leverage and the revs will go up too.

Visualization is another method that can help. Go to the line (this can also be done at home) and get into the finish position you'd like to see yourself in, ie: balanced with the right leg off to the left side of your body, left knee bent, torso over the left knee and left foot. Once you get that, you can adjust any way you need to....and believe me, from what I see you're not far off now:)
Posted by: Muggel

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/20/10 07:20 AM

what is that 500mp/h Slow down pal! slow down !When you do that foulline drill your fingers stay nicely under the ball.With that tempo the centrifugal force will uncup your wrist . Your armswing is forced and controlled .Just slow it down a few hundred miles and you will do fine! do some free armswings prior to your approach and listen to your free armswing ! I like your style and your attitude though!if i recorded your bowling and played it in halfspeed it would be great i think
Posted by: Time-To-Roll

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/20/10 10:25 AM

John, reading all the posts, I think Jack's idea of knowing how you will finish may be the key. Doing what ever it requires to finish like a pro. One thing that has helped me is to feel my right heel leads the right leg behind me. In order to finish right in perfect balance you will need to slow down, clear leg early,stay low and roll the ball from behind your ankle.Like Jack says your almost there. Another thing is to see your line and walk the tight rope toward your target. Keep us posted with your progress. Good luck.

Time to roll
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/20/10 01:41 PM

Thanks all.
I am, also, concentrating on having the weight of the ball on the pad of my index finger towards the thumb side. Practice swings at home are feeling more comfortable. I also have been alternating games thumb in thumb out to get the feel. I am off today to practice spr's 3-1 left moves. I'll post how that goes.

~ John
Posted by: Dennis Michael

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/20/10 03:32 PM

John, your problem is simple. Thanks for putting tape on the balls. That helps.

Count your revs by counting the tape revolutions in your normal roll. Then count them when you did the no thumb drill. You increased revs by 3 times.

That's your objective!! Keep your hand under the ball and it works.
Posted by: spectral

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 04/21/10 10:28 AM

John,

i think your timing looks great until just before your last step.
then it seems you want to tear ur arm to the front increasing the speed of the swing and throwing your balance off a little at the foul line.

increasing the swing speed that much also forces your wrist to make a tough decision. Break back (and migrate to a less strong position) or break in half laugh
Posted by: trekguy

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 05/20/10 08:52 AM

Originally Posted By: ijohn83
Originally Posted By: sk8shorty01
You are going to have to live at that foul line until you can train your arm to let the ball fall all the way through the swing.

I know this to be true.



This is with no thumb until 1:33 working on strong wrist inside & under. When the thumb goes in @ 1:33 I dump the wrist like SpareMe was saying.

~ John



Keep doing the no-thumb drills... that is the feel of "unloading" that you are looking to duplicate with the thumb in. Alternate back and forth until you can get the same feel/reaction with thumb in or out.

Then comes the tricky part for you. Maintaining that unload release with your full approach. I get the distinct feeling that you rather enjoy destroying the pins with your high speed down and in shot. grin

And, it's not about your right hip, or which way your left arm points, or your timing, or your plaid shorts... it's about what your hand is doing at the point of release. sk8 is right on about pulling down on the ball, that's where it starts to go wrong. Let it fall. Let it fall, then unload the wrist/hand after it goes past your ankle. You'll have to focus solely on your wrist and hand... let it fall... unload... let it fall... unload. If you can arrange it with the center so that you can shadow bowl with no pins, that, I think would be helpful for you.

Keep doing the foul line drill until you can unload it with your thumb in the ball.

Posted by: Rocket

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 05/20/10 06:52 PM

This is not any form of advice, I just wanted to comment that I have been following your practice videos since you started posting them I believe. And I am very impressed with your growth and work ethic unlike I had been doing with practicing something a few times and thinking foolishly I fixed my problem and moved on you continue to focus on your issues.

I have now decided to do the same keep up the good work you are inspiring me if nothing else.

Rocket Senior.
Posted by: ijohn83

Re: Has been awhile ijohn83 practice (04-14-10) - 05/21/10 02:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Rocket
This is not any form of advice, I just wanted to comment that I have been following your practice videos since you started posting them I believe. And I am very impressed with your growth and work ethic unlike I had been doing with practicing something a few times and thinking foolishly I fixed my problem and moved on you continue to focus on your issues.

I have now decided to do the same keep up the good work you are inspiring me if nothing else.

Rocket Senior.
Ha! You do give me too much credit Rocket. Today, for example, I printed out trekguy's comments with full intent of following them. When I got to the bowling alley & asked the front desk to "shadow bowl" they looked at me like I was from Mars. They could not understand why anyone would bowl without pins & said that their machines could not do it. I started at the foul line to do my practice plan but after 1 game moved back to full approach & crushing the pins with my down & in shot. I do think I learned today that the ball swinging the shoulder comes from a straight arm on the push-a-way or hinge-drop if that makes any sense

~ John.