camera recommendations?

Posted by: lewtrek

camera recommendations? - 11/30/09 01:38 PM

any camera recommendations? how much fps (frames per second) do you need to get good footage of bowling release?

video-camera or digital camera. +price.
Posted by: ecub

Re: camera recommendations? - 11/30/09 02:02 PM

Casio EX-FS series cameras are very popular in the golfing community for taking videos of people's swings. It takes excellent videos, especially in slo-mo. I don't have one, but many do recommend it. They are cheap and I believe they can be mounted on a tripod. The only downside is that it does not record the audio when you take a slo-mo shot.
Posted by: bradw

Re: camera recommendations? - 12/01/09 10:20 AM

flip video makes a few cameras with a good range of prices.

http://www.theflip.com/en-us/Products/

Posted by: RDubYa

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/03/10 07:51 PM

I like Sony video cams because they perform well in low light such as in most bowling centers. I suggest getting a model that has adjustable shutter speed of at least 1/2000.

Here are the requirements from MotionProSoftware.com:

* Mini DV Digital Video Camcorder with manual shutter control capable of at least 1/2000 second images
* 480 lines of horizontal resolution (double the resolution provided by standard analog video cameras)
* IEEE 1394 "Fire Wire" port for digital video transfer
* 60 FPS capable via deinterlacing

Posted by: Vini

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/04/10 07:29 PM

I just got the Mino HD from Flip.

that little thing is pretty good.

Worth every penny !
Posted by: spectral

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/05/10 07:52 AM

RDubYa

when i look around in stores for cameras that meet the requirements that means spending 900 (thats like 1000$ i think).

isn't there some cheaper camera's that will do the trick.

All i want to do is have a clear video of how i release the ball. My 'camera' now has a fuzzy look when recording and you can't really tell where the fingers are at any point during the swing or release
Posted by: Vini

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/05/10 12:56 PM

Spectral

I bought my MINO HD + shipping from USA for 200 USD.
Mino = 165 USD
Shipping = 30 USD
Just go to Ebay. A lot of options there
Posted by: RDubYa

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/05/10 01:06 PM

Lewtrek,

Yes, there are many less expensive cameras on the market that will do what you want. There are also many that cost less that meet most of the specs I referenced.

If you don't ever intend to use any video analysis software programs and you just want to watch the video from the camera then go for the lower priced models.

Keep in mind though that you can now get video analysis software for bowling for as little as $40. With this software you can analyze your game frame by frame or in slow motion, draw lines and measure angles on the video and compare two videos side by side. Check out Motion Pro Lite at http://motionprosoftware.com/store.htm

If you think you will ever want to do this kind of video analysis it might be worth it to get a better camera now if you can put out a little more cash.

Good luck!
Posted by: spectral

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/05/10 01:41 PM

so the high costs come with a camera that allows you to upload the image to your computer?
Posted by: RDubYa

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/05/10 09:49 PM

You are correct Spectral. Some cameras don't allow easy uploading to a computer and some do not use a video format that can be read by motion software programs to do slow motion replay and to access other analysis tools.

At the very least, I suggest that your camera should offer viewing your videos in slow motion because many times you will see something that you didn't catch in a real time replay.

On the other hand, many of the low priced cameras like the Flip mentioned above do have high definition video and are compact and easy to use. It just depends on what your ultimate goal is for the camera.

I use mine for coaching bowling so I want a camera that has a shutter speed that will slow down the motion in clear images (no blur) and that will easily upload to coaching software.

Posted by: Rocket

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/05/10 10:01 PM

Rdubya, I downloaded the trial version of motion-pro and I can see your point. My wife bought me a cheap video camera for Christmas and when I put the video in Motion pro some of the features could not be used well because I can not clearly make out the arrows on the lanes and such.

Its pretty cool in the full edition you can even check out ball speed and rpm. (Motion view ) pretty similar software will let you do it in trail mode but again video not clear enough to get good results

Now how to get a better video camera without hurting her feelings and the cash for the software??? Looks like more jewelry for her is on its way!

Posted by: RDubYa

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/05/10 11:14 PM

I had a guess that you might feel that way, but you gotta give your wife credit for trying to help you out with a camera.

I use BowlersMap Gold which cost almost $1000 and I also have the full instructional version of MotionPro which is hundreds less in price.

I use MotionPro and they guarantee free updates for life. Also, many of my students have purchased the software so they can make and analyze their own videos.

The original camera specs I gave you were from the MotionPro website. Good luck on finding the right jewelry to get the job done!
Posted by: sk8shorty01

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/09/10 12:38 PM

RDubYa, because you seem to know a few things about cameras have you seen the Go Pro HD Cameras that are now available for sports?

I was just curious if something like this would work for the OP.

http://www.goprocamera.com/index.php?area=2&productid=33
Posted by: RDubYa

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/10/10 12:02 AM

No I had not seen this camera system before and it sounds like it is relatively new since some of the videos say they are "pre-production". In reading the specs I found some serious deficiencies for use for bowling.

1. The camera has a "fixed focus" lens with no zoom feature. It is important to be able to zoom in on footwork, release, or downlane to show revolutions. This camera does not afford you with these zoom options. This is also important just to get the right amount of image in the picture field. You want your body to take up most of the visual field versus having the picture look like someone is 20 feet away filming you or so close that only your upper body is visible.

2. I slso didn't see any information on shutter speed so that you can insure that slow motion videos are not blurred in areas like the release.

3. I would like to know who makes this camera. Since I didn't see them referring to a name brand manufacturer, I would be reluctant to move away from companies whose main product is video equipment.

4. I think you can get a camera as good or better for the same price with the features that I mentioned above.

Good luck!
Posted by: Smooth Stroker

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/10/10 05:07 PM

I use a Canon HD video camera. got it on sale a while back. No hard drive. I haven't bought a bowling program yet. I will say to make sure you Computer is up to date. If you have an older and slightly slower model, the video might not edit in real time. My not that old Mac is just before they switched over to intel processors. It's not fast enough to handle HD in real time. From what I read, I need a quad processor. Real bummer. I bought this one so I could upgrade it, can't upgrade to the intel processors. I have to buy a new computer. I know I can get a mini for real cheap but cheap is still more than I can spend at the moment. oh well.
Posted by: franz

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/10/10 05:42 PM

I use a Kodak ZI6 for making videos. Kodak now makes camera's that can shoot video in HD but also being a little pocket camcorder rather than an actaul digital camera. The ZI6 is there older model from about a 1 1/2 years ago. It can shoot in 720P HD and has a fixed focus lens. It has a 1.6 MP sensor and can shoot 3MP photos. It can shoot 720P HD video at 30 or 60 frames a second.

The Photo's wont look to great but the video is very good. I was able to get the Zi6 at Sears for $80. If you don't want to spend a lot of money then I would go with a pocket HD camcorder. I have used a Hitachi DVD Camcorder and a Panasonic SDR-S10 flash camcorder. Both tended to have focus problems sometimes. You could see the picture and lighting change ever so slightly.

Kodak digital cameras I don't think are considered to be very reliable but with the ZI6 there is no lens then opens up. It's just a fixed focus lens so it doesn't use much power. It shouldn't break anytime soon either.
Posted by: mgeorg

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/11/10 05:29 AM

http://www.1saleaday.com/ has a DXG High-Definition Super Slim Handheld Digital Camcorder, 720p with 3" LCD Monitor, 2x Digital Zoom, CMOS 5.0MP Image Sensor, Still Camera Mode 5.0 MP, Rechargeable NIMH Batteries, Photo Special Effects, Voice Recording, Expandable Memory, USB 2.0 Interface and More! Model # DXG-569V for $64.99 after shipping.
Posted by: spectral

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/11/10 08:50 AM

RDubYa

what would be your best budget choice?

since i (and probably a lot of members here as well) am not willing to spend 1000+$ on a camera just for watching me bowl, i have no other uses for a camera so far.

you seem to know a lot about this so how about a recommendation?
Posted by: lewtrek

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/11/10 12:49 PM

well my camera is good enough for now, it's a panasonic lumix tz5. I was just wondering what options were out there that would do higher fps (this one is 30 fps). Good enough I can use quicktime for frame-by-frame.

I'll eventually get one of those exilims i think. I haven't seen anything that matches it yet for the money.
Posted by: TenPin_

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/11/10 01:03 PM

For lots of info on camcorders check out http://www.camcorderinfo.com/

I'm not sure about pricing or availability in Belgium, you might be stuck with higher prices than I talk about below just because of where you are. Can you get stuff from Amazon.com or Ebay without paying import taxes or tons for shipping?

Prices for HD camcorders have come down dramatically in the last year, while the high end models are still in the $1000+ range, there are plenty that are worth owning at a much lower price. In fact there are some entry level HD camcorders from name brand companies (Sony, Canon) that can be had for around $500, which is what I would suggest, unless you are on a very tight budget.

Inexpensive pocket cameras can work and give you ok results but the cameras come with limitations, such as not having an optical zoom (digital zooms are just short of worthless), not having selectable shutter speeds or preset modes, not having an auto focus lens, using a lot of compression (which causes detail loss), not working well in low light, not having a good dynamic range (bright areas become blown out, dark areas are completely black), etc.

There are a number of camcorders starting at about $250 that solve some of the above limitations. They are DV cameras (not HD) and have real optical zoom lenses, auto focus, lower compression ratios, and while a lot of them don't let you set the shutter manually they at least have preset "scene" modes that you can use to try to get the camcorder to do what you want. Ignoring most other aspects, these will capture a better quality video than pocket cameras simply because of the lens being of higher quality, able to zoom, and having auto focus. Reliable brands are Sony, Canon, Panasonic, JVC.

Finally as I mentioned above there are some HD camcorders that are going for around $500 now that are pretty good camcorders. Canon, Sony, and JVC each have HD camcorders with zoom lenses, auto focus, etc that are between $475 and $525. If you can afford it I highly suggest going with an HD camcorder (especially from Canon or Sony). One other thing to keep in mind with HD video is that you will probably need to buy a program for editing. Windows Movie Maker will work with HD video but is very limited, I think Sony might include a program with some of their more expensive camcorders but not sure if they include it with all of them, and Canon doesn't include any editing software. I ended up buying Sony Vegas Platinum 9 for about $100 which is just short of a professional video editing program (a lot of amateurs use it for making their movies).

I started with a standard DV camcorder that I got for $250 because I didn't want to spend $1000 on the HD camcorder that I really wanted (this was 2 years ago). For the year I had that camcorder I was never really happy with it, the quality was ok but not great, the resolution itself was lacking because it was a fairly inexpensive DV camcorder (which I didn't know at that time), so the video wasn't really clear or detailed. It also didn't work very well in low light, the camera would often underexpose (I had no manual shutter controls) or it would turn up the gain which brightened the image but made it grainy (losing detail). I have since purchased a Canon HD camcorder and wish I had done it from the start. It's still not the best in dark places but is a lot better than the DV camcorder, plus I can control the shutter speed so I can find the best compromise between brightness, blur, and gain (grain). Also since it is full HD the resolution is a ton better, giving a sharper more detailed video, and the grain caused when in low light isn't as pronounced as it was with the DV camcorder. Another advantage of HD is that most of them (maybe all of them?) shoot at 60i FPS, which will capture more of the action and deliver better detail that other camcorders only capturing at 30 FPS would miss.

If I had to recommend a single camcorder by name that I think would give the best quality for a good price, I would say look for a used Canon HV20. It was discontinued awhile ago and is the model that came out just before the camcorder I have and has a lot of the same feature as mine. I'm sure there are others, but when I did my research a couple years ago everything pointed to the HV20.

Edit: My grammar is not as bad as this post makes it seem...the forum is removing the "s" from camera when it makes it a link.

Edit 2: Ok, now why did it work in my edit note?
Posted by: spectral

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/13/10 10:28 AM

what was the new price of such a camera?

i spotted on 2nd handed for around 550, i think thats somewhere between 600 and 700$, would that be a good price?
Posted by: TenPin_

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/13/10 01:08 PM

The HV20 when it was new in the US was around $1000, now the HV40 (newer model) can be had for about $700. So $600 - 700 would not be a great price for a used HV20 in the US, but in Belgium it might be. (I just checked Ebay and the HV20 is selling for around $400)

Another option is to check out hv20.com, it is an online forum of mostly Canon video camera users but does have some other brands too. There are a number of members from Europe on there and some one might have one for sale or be able to find one for you, or might be able to suggest an alternative model / brand that is more readily available in your country at a fair price.
Posted by: cgeorg

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/14/10 07:43 AM

Has anyone used Pinnacle editing software? Woot has it for 55 bucks shipped today... http://www.woot.com/
Posted by: Smooth Stroker

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/14/10 11:18 AM

I have the Canon HV20 and I'm very happy with it. The difference is night and day from the digital video I was using before this. crystal clear. Like I said before, I need to upgrade my computer and software, but I'm very happy with it.
Posted by: spectral

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/21/10 02:35 PM

anyone know or have experience with this digital camcorder?:
CANON Legria FS22

it has a shutter speed of 1/2000e s - 1/6 s
37x optical zoom
2000x digital zoom
resolution: 1152 x 864

sound like a good deal?
Posted by: spectral

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/25/10 08:05 AM

pushing it back up so someone (possible rdubya) can answer the question about the camera wink
Posted by: HughScot

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/25/10 09:27 AM

This is a very good site for camcorder info. and Canon makes excellent camcorders. http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ Photography is a serious hobby of mine.
Posted by: ecub

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/25/10 11:49 AM

FS22 isn't bad, but it's not HD. I recently purchased a Vixia HF20, which appears to be similar in specs with the FS22, but the Vixia/Legria HF20 is HD. I believe the Legria is a Euro model, and the Vixia is US model.
Posted by: TenPin_

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/25/10 11:55 AM

From the review I found it sounds like a decent camcorder (most user reviews are positive too). It has a higher resolution than the standard definition camcorder I had previously so the picture quality should be decent, even though it isn't HD. It also has manual shutter control which is good. Here is the review I found... http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/camcorders/canon-fs22/10303.html

How much $ did you find it for?
Posted by: spectral

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/25/10 11:58 AM

around 500euro, i'm european wink
Posted by: spectral

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/27/10 07:01 AM

i cannot find the HF20 here in belgium it seems.

how about the canon Legria HF200 then? I found some reviews stating the HF200 is cheaper and better quality. Only that it lacks internal memory compared to the HF20, something i won't really be needing anytime soon since my movies will be quite short.

any ideas about this one? I really need a camera with which i can tape my approach and release in slow motion with lots of details about how the wrist is behaving.
Posted by: ecub

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/27/10 10:45 AM

The HF20 & HF200 are the same specs, except that the HF200 does not have internal memory. The quality is the same on both cameras.

Make sure you buy a Class 4 or better SDHC card. There are a few cheap Class 6 SDHC cards that the camcorder reports as class 4 or 2. I bought the Kingston 32GB Secure Digital High-Capacity (SDHC) Flash Card (class 4), which works well with the camcorder. There are many that have bought this card for similar cameras and have had positive feedback.
Posted by: spectral

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/27/10 03:15 PM

i just ordered a HF200 with a 32GB memory card with 15MB write and read speed.

funny enough this came out cheaper than buying a HF20 (which has 32 GB internal memory). It was like 70 cheaper, very strange...

so i ordered a HF200 smile
Posted by: ecub

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/27/10 03:47 PM

The HF20 has internal 32Gb and expansion slot. So you can have an additional 32Gb storage with an SDHC, giving your 64Gb. I have the HF20 and thought that 32Gb would not be enough. I was wrong. I should have saved myself the extra cash and bought the HF200. Anyways, good choice.
Posted by: spectral

Re: camera recommendations? - 01/27/10 03:48 PM

so you can make very high quality slow motion videos with that? smile

can you show me an example? have a youtube video somewhere?