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#97055 - 07/03/09 01:50 PM Re: Searching For Integrity, Finding Little [Re: SpareMe]
okorimbo Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 07/27/02
Posts: 212
A/S/L: 77,male,SF Bay Area
There are so many different points in the original post to consider. First, how does one define "integrity"... that's somewhat analogous to "a fair share" in taxes or whatever. Who and How does one define this?
Second, the question of equipment and lane conditions. Every sport has changed over the years. Golf has progressed from niblicks etc., to clubs that cost more than 3 bowling balls each. Could the modern day golfers play with the clubs and golf balls of the 20's? Maybe, maybe not. Could modern day tennis players use the old rackets of the 20's and 30's? Could the super stars of yore, the,Walter Hagans, Don Budges and Margaret Courts, stack up against the Federers or the Williams? I doubt it. But, does that mean that the sports of golf and tennis have lost their integrity or that the playing field isn't level? Again, I doubt it. Back when Warmerdam made history with a 14 foot pole vault they didn't have the fiber glass super poles that are used today by the Bubkas,etc. For decades a 4 minute mile was impossible, now 4 minutes isn't enough to place in the top 5 of any mile run. Change is inevitable in every phase of human existence including sports. And, if bowling is a sport, then we must accept that change will occur here too.
You fail to recognize that athletes have changed also. People today are healthier, stronger, more diet and fitness conscious than they were 20 years ago.This has had an impact on the ability to perform.
Now, the question of a level playing field... whatever that means. There has been a lot of talk about how easy house shots are and how little merit there is to an honor score these days. Well, if that were so, why aren't there more bowlers averaging 230 or better? Why is it that in so-called easy houses an entire league doesn't score astronomical scores every session? The national average for men is around 175 and for women around 138 { the last time I remember from the Detroit association...it could have changed by now, but the point is the same} if everything is so easy why isn't the national average 200 or better? The point here is that everyone is different. There are differing levels of skill and the probability of having a level field for all level of ability is non-existent. This does not men that there is a loss of integrity in the sport.
As for the bit about discrimination...it was worse in the past but it still exists today. There are leagues and clubs that are pretty much restricted to one ethnic group or another and this is accepted by everyone... unless one happens to be of the wrong group there is little hue and cry about it.
So, unless you can really define integrity and realistically provide solutions that are equitable to solve the "problems" of bowling, I'm afraid you're going to have to put up with the status quo and just try to have a good time. If you want, of course, you can restrict your bowling to the Sport Leagues and join the PBA and just let the rest of us enjoy the sport/recreation as we see fit.
I am reminded or Erin's comments about getting involved with the local association. It's a bit like all the folks that continually complain about their league secretary but never want to step up and do the job themselves.
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#97060 - 07/03/09 03:25 PM Re: Searching For Integrity, Finding Little [Re: okorimbo]
Dennis Michael Online   jestera
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Registered: 12/11/05
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A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Okorimbo, but the average scores have increased over the past 20 years. And, the 300 games recorded have more than tripled in the same time, and with fewer bowlers.
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#97062 - 07/03/09 03:50 PM Re: Searching For Integrity, Finding Little [Re: okorimbo]
Happy Birthday who's that Offline
High Roller Hopeful

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 368
A/S/L: 32 Male New Jersey
I measure sucess based off the level of dominates that person displayed in there time. How can you compare Novatalova to Serina Williams, you can't! Serina is only as good as she is because she studied Martina's game. This applies to all sports, and athelete's in my opinion.
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#97063 - 07/03/09 04:11 PM Re: Searching For Integrity, Finding Little [Re: Dennis Michael]
okorimbo Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 07/27/02
Posts: 212
A/S/L: 77,male,SF Bay Area
Dennis: that's not the point. The point is that every aspect of life, including sports, changes. There is very little that is static. Why are we so willing to accept change and improvement in every other thing but decry it in bowling? I'll grant you that conditions are more conducive to higher scores. But along with that comes the realization that we have vastly improved learning. Look at the plethora of truly gifted coaches and analysis equipment. Back when I was a lad [ lol] coaches were rare and no one could analyze angles of entrance,RG, Differentials,etc., and ball speed was often a guess.Ball drillers didn't know much more than how to punch holes,most drillings were pin at 1:30, 3/8 under and grips were occasional, if it didn't hurt it was ok. Now we understand Mass Bias, finger tip vs conventional,oval grips vs round, softer vs firmer, thumb slugs that are better than a plain old hole,etc.,changes in pitches and video analysis of one's motion. The old days when they used a spray gun to "oil" the lanes, which were lacquer, and everyone used a plastic ball were probably the closest to a so-called level field. Today we have so many things we can teach bowlers about their own ability and explain and work on things that skill levels are bound to improve. You cannot ignore the influence that coaching and scientific analysis of equipment and so forth have had on the improvement we see. And, regardless of how easy a house shot may be, one still has to execute the delivery. We see a lot of 300s but so far no 1500 games or 4500 series and even the pros don't always have an astronomical score in "normal" league play.
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#97064 - 07/03/09 04:20 PM Re: Searching For Integrity, Finding Little [Re: Atochabsh]
dante21 Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 58
A/S/L: 26/m/IN
I agree Erin to a point. You seem to be an exception to what I've encountered. The nearest coach to me is a 45 min trip and I just haven't had the motivation or time to set up a session. However when I was practicing two weeks ago, and some guy was getting some lessens on the lane next to me. I didn't think to bother them, but afterwords the guy left and the coach was throwing a few games by himself. I asked him "hey can you see if I'm coming around the ball to early." I was by myself and would have asked anybody knowledgeable around and he happened to be there. He said "I have an appointment in a half hour, but at 4:30 you can book me and I'll work with you." Maybe he thought I was looking for free lessens but the owner told me he always has that same attitude.
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#97066 - 07/03/09 05:54 PM Re: Searching For Integrity, Finding Little [Re: dante21]
Dennis Michael Online   jestera
Legend

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 6115
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Okorimbo, I have only been back for 4 years after a 24 year sabbatical. And, there is a world of difference in that time. If that is progress, then so be it. When I say there is NO level playing field, I will give you an example in myown Association.

We have 13 houses in the Association. Our 300 games number 88 in total. And, 52 are from 2 centers. Here is our Website, click on honor scores - 300 games.
http://mchenrycountybowling.com/ Look at the scores from EG - Edgetown Bowl, and JB - Johnsburg Bowl.

These 2 houses are notorious for a funneled shot, shallow gutters and bouncey side walls. They don't have all of the better bowlers. They have made it easier to bowl higher scores. But, both of these houses are growing in numbers of bowlers because of their high scores recorded. While the other Houses, who have a tougher shot, Sport leagues, and PBA Patterns are losing bowlers. People are attracted to the higher scores, and they will be catered to.
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#97071 - 07/03/09 08:28 PM Re: Searching For Integrity, Finding Little [Re: Dennis Michael]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 5642
A/S/L: 45/F/California
the coaching thing is a bit on my mind still. Mainly because I can see both sides of the story. A certified coach paid a lot of money to become so and they might be supplementing their income by coaching. Therefore you do not give away a skill you paid to learn and are using to support your family. It would be like watching a car mechanic fix a car, finish and then ask him to come and look at yours and diagnose a problem for free. We were in fact instructed in the USBC Bronze level coarse to NOT give away coaching for free.

On the other hand most coaches are such because they love sharing their knowledge about this sport and helping others gain that knowledge.

I really don't remember any helpful higher level bowlers ever offering free tips and such on the lanes during open play. Most times if you were a higher level bowler you kept your secrets of sucess to yourself. Coaching was virtually unheard of unless you got into a sophisticated program of some kind and then you certainly didn't share that information with competators.

But people want things for free I understand that. But like anything else these days, coaching is generally not free. Like I mentioned above find some "learn to bowl" leagues or weekend clinics to attend. Those are your best bargins. And as for travelling 45 min......I used to travel 90 min each way to see my coach until she moved across the country. Now she truely is out of reach.

Erin

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#97072 - 07/03/09 08:34 PM Re: Searching For Integrity, Finding Little [Re: Atochabsh]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 5642
A/S/L: 45/F/California
I think the idea of X number of 300s and 800 series cannot be compared now to yester-year. The National averages are similar because the game in many aspects has not changed. YOu still have to knock 10 pins down and unless you take extra steps to get better, you will stay at that National average level. What I do think has effected the number of 300s, 800s and various honor awards is that there is more knowledge about how to bowl at a very high level. So those that are willing to get better can do so, when they do, they achieve more honor awards.

I still see the occasional 800+ series come in from someone averaging 190 something. But that happens. One of our centers in Santa Clara, about 20+ years ago, the first 300 bowled by a woman was done by a lady with a backup ball and very much so "under the influence". She did not have the benefit of today's bowling balls or lane conditions, yet she bowled a 300. There is still luck involved.

Erin

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#97074 - 07/03/09 08:59 PM Re: Searching For Integrity, Finding Little [Re: Dennis Michael]
okorimbo Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 07/27/02
Posts: 212
A/S/L: 77,male,SF Bay Area
Dennis,
I don't believe I said or implied that the playing field is level. I would agree that it is not. But, so what? The more people that bowl, the healthier the sport is. Interest is based upon participation. For example, soccer is the number one sport in most of the world, except for the US. Why? Because we haven't grown up with it from childhood. Can you imagine the huge turnouts we see for baseball and football if we didn't grow up playing these games? Would anyone really want to go see a bunch of overpaid guys playing games that we don't relate to? How many of us take the time out to watch Badminton or Cricket....both hugely popular and difficult sports.
If we encourage people to bowl then we increase the fan base. If you or I want a more challenging venue then there are sport leagues, PBA experience leagues and so forth. The typical house is there to make money and provide entertainment. When folks really get into the game they will often want to improve and will take lessons and look for a harder place. Some. of course, will not. You allude to this by stating that the easy houses don 't have the better bowlers. This is something like the difference between playing slow-pitch softball and fast pitch.
As for 300 games, etc., In our scratch league we had 6 300 games this season....in our league there is a bowler who is listed in the recent group of the 50 greatest all-time bowlers so we know he isn't a duffer. He did not have one of the 300s nor did he have one of the two 800 series. With easy lanes we should expect somewhat more sterling performance. Yet, should we denigrate the guys that managed to shoot 300 or 800 because this Hall-of-Famer couldn't?
My whole point was that times change, attitudes change, equipment changes, conditions change... in every facet of human endeavor. My personal opinion is that a search for perfection is doomed to failure. We can't stay stagnate in the faded glory of the past. We have to adapt. I frequently chat with folks who are annoyed that some duffer shot a high score or 300 and when I ask why they didn't do it if it was so easy they don't have a rational answer and change the subject.
So, we agree. Conditions are easy. My point is.. so what. You and some others see it as the downfall of Western Civilization ( obviously that's a joke), So be it. We can still enjoy the game and impart our knowledge to others as best we can, in the hope that they too will grow to love the game and aim for higher levels.
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#97075 - 07/03/09 09:16 PM Re: Searching For Integrity, Finding Little [Re: okorimbo]
okorimbo Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 07/27/02
Posts: 212
A/S/L: 77,male,SF Bay Area
On coaching: Erin's comments are spot on. A coach has to shell out a lot of money for classes and if one wants to be more complete he or she might even take a pro-shop course so as to learn about grips, lay-outs and so forth. All of this costs money. I shelled out at least 3 grand for the USBC programs (Bronze and SIlver) the Ritger program and for the IBPSIA certification course. Plus travel and living expenses, since they weren't in my immediate neighborhood. Add to this the cost of accessories one needs to be able to teach well such as a camcorder, vcr, etc. So if some coach is trying to recoup some of that don't begrudge him or her. As for free lessons,things that are free are seldom appreciated for their actual worth. I do very often not charge for the first lesson. If we get along and my methods are ok then usually they'll come back. Every year I also take a refresher course of some kind, such as a Ritger camp or a Ron Clifton clinic to hone up my skills (such as they are) and bring things into focus. Not many coaches in today's economic times can afford to do this without getting something back. The old adage :"there's no such thing as a free lunch" certain ly applies to coaching.
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