Does anybody have any experience with Visionary's Ogre line? It seems that they have covered a lot of bases with everything from urethane to reactive to pearl to particle coverstocks built around the same core.

I would be especially curious how their equipment stacks up against Roto Grip's and Storm's equipment, if anybody has thrown these, too.

Visionary is a good company but most of their stuff if more lower to mid level. Since you said that you are a lower rev bowler, unless you see very little oil, most of their stuff wouldn't fit you. A buddy just got the Black Ogre (particle). He loves it. The ball is rough. Feels like it has fur (literally). He got it drilled pin over ring finger. He is a medium rev guy and on a house shot, he was around 10 out to 5 and in. At Vegas, he was in the middle like everyone else. Since you drill your own stuff and you may try a few of their balls, you may want to look into their "tester" program. For the highest level, you get 4 balls, a bag, shirt, and some other stuff for like $500. Then, you get discounts on other equipment. Another buddy of mine is in it and loves it. He doesn't bowl a lot of tourneys though. They create their hook buy adding particle to the cover stock and adding surface.

The owners of Visionary are the sons of the original owners of Faball (Hammer). They know a little about bowling

Thanks for the info. Visionary's Test Program is the reason I am thinking about checking them out...a new arsenal for $500, plus 50% off future equipment purchases for an entire year, and the program is renewable for something like $50 per year. All this in exchange for writing up a few ball reviews? No problem.

The Ogre line is of particular interest to me because of all the different coverstocks and the same core. The risk is if I don't like the way that particular core revs up, I probably won't like any of the equipment. Is it still worth $500 to try? Probably, but I would still like to get some additional feedback from other bowlers since I have not actually seen anybody rolling Visionary.

Concerning the equipment being more lower to mid level, that's okay. In searching for a dry lanes ball, I have yet to find an "entry level" reactive ball that did not hook more than I wanted. Hmmm, maybe I have more revs than I thought. Anyway, there is actually an Ogre with a urethane cover which should do nicely to fill that gap.

I have enjoyed throwing Roto Grip, particularly all the different Cells, but their other equipment did not work well for me. The Mars, for example, has way too much back end for me to consider it a dry lanes ball. For that ball, it seems that the core is too strong for the cover. On the other hand, it seems that Visionary has invested heavily in the Ogre core, by providing it in a variety of balls. I am hoping it is a winner.

The guys I know who have the Ogres like them. The Gladiator series hits like a truck too. The New Breeds are eh. You can also get some of their older balls too. The one buddy of mine who is on their test program still uses his Red Executioner every week at league. He loves it. If you have any questions about any of the balls, either e-mail them or call them. They are normally quick to respond and really nice people.

I use to have one of the Purple Ogres and I loved it. I would still be using it if I didn't change ball weight from 14 to 16. I know a guy who is, or was part of the Test Program. He uses Visionary mainly but he does use other equipment as well. He has a lot of hand so they move for him pretty well. I know several other guys that have a few Visionary balls, not just from the Ogre line and like them.

If you really want to give it a try, get the one ball and give them a try before committing to the Test Program.

I have a Visionary AMB Centaur and I love it.

I think Cal has a good idea. Try a ball from them to see if you like it before putting a big investment into them. I'd recomend the Ogre Pearl if you go that route. That is one of their most proven balls and a pretty good benchmark even though it's pearl.

Which pearl? They have two the SS and the Purple that I had. It was my bench mark especially since my arsenal was pearl heavy at one point. If I had the money I might have jumped on the Test Program a few years ago.

Thanks for the suggestions. I was just checking out some videos on BuddiesProShop.com, and I was pretty impressed with how hard the Ogre(s) hit (not much deflection), especially considering the guy throwing it was more of a medium revs guy.

Cool. Chia-ball. LOL.

the immortal is a great ball also, my friend bought my immortal pearl (14lb) and he loves it....he had it stack drilled and love the pin action.... i just needed to of bought the immortal solid from the get go cause i lack the revs to use the pearl on our league shot(heavy oil).....

I'm referring to the purple one Cal. As far as I know it's name is Ogre Pearl.

I always called it the Purple Ogre, and the solid the Orange(I knew quite a few people with it). The other pearl is the SS which is suppose to go longer but from the videos I saw snap even harder.

I have decided to go ahead and become a Visionary Test Staff member. Jason Wonders, the head of Marketing, was kind enough to allow me to substitute a 5th ball instead of a 3-ball bag (since I already have a 6-ball bag).

For starters, I ordered one of each of the OGREs:
Orange/Black (solid)
Purple/Black (pearl)
Silver/Blue (pearl)
Pewter/Black (particle)
Gray/Blue/Black (urethane)

I am going to be at Nationals in Vegas next week, so I am hoping they arrive shortly after I return. I will post my ball reviews including layouts, surface prep, etc., here in this thread. If anybody else has any feedback they want to add on Visionary equipment, feel free.

Well depending on when you will be in Vegas, the balls could be there before you return. They tend to be pretty quick with the shipping if I remember correctly.

That would be awesome. I spent the better part of a day mapping out the precise layouts, down to the location of the balance holes, of how I wanted to drill each OGRE, then calculated the ideal Pin to CG length and Top Weight for each. For two of the balls, the Silver/Blue OGRE (pearl) and Pewter/Black OGRE (particle), I requested 4.5 to 5.5 inch pins. The others are in the more "normal" range. If they are able to fill the order without contacting me first to suggest different specifications, I will be truly impressed.

Did you get the equipment yet?

They are expected to arrive today, 7/15, minus the new urethane OGRE, which will be delivered as soon as they have a 1 to 2 inch pin and 2 to 2.5 ounces top weight available. Can't wait to drill them up and test them out this weekend.

Preface to ball reviews:

My new Visionary equipment arrived last week, and I had a chance to drill 4 of the 5 balls and test a couple of them out over the weekend, and last night in league. Before I dive into the ball reviews, I wanted to give you a perspective on my overall strategy.

When I decided to become a Visionary Test Staff member, I knew I was taking a risk not being very familiar with their equipment. But, something intrigued me about the Ogre core. It's appearance reminded me of a jack that would stabilize itself when spun. And, I liked the idea that the same core was available in 5 different coverstocks including solid reactive, pearl reactive, particle, and urethane.

So, for my test equipment, I chose one of each of the Ogres, and calculated how I would drill each to cover a broad spectrum of lane conditions. This is what I came up with:

Pewter Ogre (particle) - strong ball w/ strong layout, out of box 1000 Abralon, sanded to 250, no polish

Orange Ogre (solid reactive) - strong ball w/ weak layout, out of box 600 matte, sanded to 500, no polish

Purple Ogre (strong pearl reactive) - medium ball w/ medium layout, out of box 1500 polished, sanded to 1000, no polish

Silver Ogre (skid/snap pearl reactive) - weak ball w/ strong layout, out of box 1500 polished, sanded to 2000, no polish

White Ogre (urethane) - weak ball w/ weak layout, out of box 1500 polished, will sand to 4000, no polish

The layouts I used below are designed to make the ball arc in varying degrees:

Strong Layout:
3-3/8 PAP to Pin x 5-1/2 PAP to MB with 1-1/2 Pin to VAL buffer, or
30 degrees Angle to VAL, 3-3/8 PAP to Pin, 67 degrees Drilling Angle,
with balance hole 6-3/4 from Pin,
Ideal Pin to CG: 5-3/4, Ideal Pre-drilling Top Weight: 3-1/2 oz

Medium Layout:
4-3/8 PAP to Pin x 6-1/2 PAP to MB with 3 Pin to VAL buffer, or
50 degrees Angle to VAL, 4-3/8 PAP to Pin, 87 degrees Drilling Angle,
with balance hole 5-3/4 from Pin,
Ideal Pin to CG: 3-1/2, Ideal Pre-drilling Top Weight: 3 oz

Weak Layout:
5-3/8 PAP to Pin x 7-1/2 PAP to MB with 4-3/4 Pin to VAL buffer, or
70 degrees Angle to VAL, 5-3/8 PAP to Pin, 102 degrees Drilling Angle,
with balance hole 4-3/4 from Pin (if necessary),
Ideal Pin to CG: 1-3/4, Ideal Pre-drilling Top Weight: 2-1/2 oz

I believe this combination of coverstocks and layouts, plus my plastic spare ball, will simultaneously allow me to test this equipment and bowl effectively on a wide variety of conditions.

You don't think the manufacture is putting the balls out on the street with the correct finish ? I mean you changed every single one.

I don't fault the manufacturer at all. Their out of the box specs are probably good for 80% of their customers who buy one or two balls. In my case, I prefer no polish, and am building an arsenal to cover a variety of conditions.

The drilling instructions for these balls do include a step for Surface Finish. It says, "The final step is to throw the ball and adjust the coverstock accordingly..." From drilling and rolling dozens of balls, I happen to know what finishes works best for my game.

Purple Ogre Review:

Color: Purple/Black
Finish: 1500 polished
Low RG: 2.59
Differential: .029
Coverstock: Eradicator Pearl

Pin to CG: 3-5/8
Pre-drilling Top Weight: 2-7/8
Surface prep: Sanded to 1000, no polish
Layout:
4-3/8 PAP to Pin x 6-1/2 PAP to MB with 3 Pin to VAL buffer, or
50 degrees Angle to VAL, 4-3/8 PAP to Pin, 87 degrees Drilling Angle,
with balance hole 5-3/4 from Pin
Post-drilling Static Weights: 1/2 positive, 1/16 finger, 5/8 top

Likes:
My goal for this ball was a medium arcing ball that would serve as a good benchmark ball in my new arsenal of Ogre's. That is exactly what I got. The first chance I had to really test the Purple Ogre was last night in league. This was on a house shot that plays well from various angles. I lined up swinging the ball out over the 9-10 board, and it came back in a strong, even arc. I would say the ball performed well, rolling games of 215, 254, and 268, for a 737 series. The first game I left a few 7 pins (I am left-handed) while getting lined up. After that, it was mostly strikes. What I found unusual about the ball was how smooth was its move to the pocket. It was difficult to identify exactly where it started hooking. It just seemed to be heading towards the pocket the entire length of the lane! In the long run, I believe this will help me stay in the pocket longer, and be more forgiving on more difficult conditions.

Dislikes:
The coverstock is a bit weaker than other high performance equipment. It does not read the midlane well, but does seem to make up for it on the backend where it counts.

Did you say you are or are becoming a rep or tester for the manufacture ?

It just seems to me if I was looking at your brand and see I have to change all the balls possibly I would most likely look to another brand that would work OOB instead of the extra effort and money to resurface.

But maybe I'm not looking at the situation correctly, I've been
wrong before.

For what it's worth, I've never owned a ball I haven't changed the surface on multiple times. Any ball I've ever bought that comes polished, I immediately take the polish off and put a surface on it that I can easily get back to.

To be clear, I am now a Visionary Test Staff member. Like other Test Staff members, I paid to receive a number of balls (and shirts, towels, etc.) at a discounted price in exchange for writing reviews for the equipment purchased. In no way do I represent Visionary, nor do I profit from anybody purchasing Visionary equipment.

While the Test Staff program is designed to help promote Visionary's products, I do think it is great for the testers, too. So far, I am liking their equipment. They are currently looking for additional testers. For more information, go to http://www.visionarybowling.com/ and click the link near the bottom of the page.

Concerning the surface adjustments, consider them a personal preference, not a requirement.

Adam: I have a friend of mine who used to bowl on the PBA, has won an Eagle at Nationals, and currently runs a region for the PBA. He takes every single ball that he gets and changes the surface. That way, he always knows exactly what surface it is and can put it back to that surface easier than trying to get it to "box" finish.

Joe: Your assessment of the Purple Ogre is what I have heard from my buddy. Good overall but doesn't compare to other high end equipment. They compare more to mid-level equipment.

I would have to agree. But, I am not sure that is a bad thing. Over the weekend, I took the 4 Ogres plus a Rogue Cell to the lanes. I was able to play the same line with the Purple Ogre as the Rogue Cell. The difference was the breakpoint shape. The Rogue read the lane a bit sooner and was more of a sweeping hook, while the Ogre skidded a little further and made a sharper arc to the pocket.

Now, the Pewter Ogre (particle), that ball is a monster. I have not officially reviewed it yet because I know I am going to need some oil to give it a fair review. Throwing it this weekend on a house shot, I had to give it an additional 8 boards of room from the Purple Ogre or Rogue Cell. It grabs the lane like nothing I have ever thrown.

On the other hand, I am still waiting for delivery of the White Ogre (urethane). I expect that ball will handle the dry very well. All in all, it makes me think the Purple Ogre fits well in the middle of the Ogre line.

This Thursday, I will be bowling on the Viper pattern, and am hoping to be able to use the Orange Ogre, a strong solid reactive ball, sanded to 500, but drilled weak, to play the oil on the outside of the pattern. If that goes well, and the pattern opens up, I may be able to switch to the Purple Ogre in the third or fourth game. That should be my next review.

I just wanted to add, for those that are not familiar with Visionary, their high performance lines are the New Breeds, Gladiators, and Gryphons. While I am currently fascinated with the Ogre's, they are considered to be Visionary's midprice line, retailing in the $100-$120 range. So, it may not be fair of me to compare them with high performance equipment from other manufacturers. But to their credit, so far they have performed well, and I am planning to continue using them in league (house shot and PBA experience), and take them to the next tournament I bowl.

Joe: If I bowled on a decent amount of oil, I would consider buying the particle Ogre. A buddy of mine got one. Got it drilled pin up. Loves it. Used it at Nationals and did fairly well with in considering it was only his second Nationals.

Are you going to be getting any of their other equipment? My buddy who is a tester for them as a New Breed Pearl and the Gladiator Solid. The New Breed he is not too fond of. The Gladiator when he can get a decent about of oil, rolls well and hits like a ton of bricks. If you see anything of theirs that is discontinued and it sparks an interest, ask them. They still have some of the older stuff.

Definite yes on the particle Ogre. Definite maybe on their other equipment. For now, I am busy testing 4 new Ogres, with 1 more on the way.

So far, I have only had a chance to roll a few shots with the particle Ogre. First time was on a house shot, and last night during warm-up on the Viper pattern. It may be the strongest coverstock I have ever rolled. Everybody wants to feel it, and then can't believe how fuzzy it is. Some have asked, "Is that legal?" I know I am going to love it on the right condition.

Fortunately, my summer PBA Experience league extended its season from 10 to 14 weeks, giving us 1 more week on each of 4 of the patterns, so I will have a chance to roll it on the Scorpion and Shark in a few weeks. I can hardly wait.

Orange Ogre Review:

Color: Orange/Black
Box Finish: 600 Matte
Low RG: 2.59
Differential: .029
Coverstock: Eradicator Solid

Pin to CG: 2-1/16
Pre-drilling Top Weight: 2-1/16
Surface prep: Sanded to 500, no polish
Layout:
5-3/8 PAP to Pin x 7-1/2 PAP to MB with 4-3/4 Pin to VAL buffer, or
70 degrees Angle to VAL, 5-3/8 PAP to Pin, 102 degrees Drilling Angle,
did not need a balance hole
Post-drilling Static Weights: 1/8 positive, 0 finger, 3/16 top

Likes:
My goal in laying out this ball was to create a sure-footed, but gentle arcing ball that would allow me to play the outside part of the lane with confidence. I figure the ideal scoring condition for this ball would be wet inside of 5, with increasing friction outside of 5 creating a bump area. With the combination of strong cover and weak layout, the ball should set up nicely, without overreacting when it hits the dry. With the Ogre's symmetrical core, medium/low diff, and my choice of weak layout, I got about 2-1/2 inches of Track flare, which I believe is ideal for this condition.

Last night, I had a chance to test the ball on the Viper pattern in my PBA experience league. There were a few things working against me...

First, I have really struggled in this league. It's a new house for me, and the patterns play a little differently, but probably truer, than I have previously experienced. My average going into last night was 174. The best series I had previously thrown in this league was 766 for 4 games.

Second, the Viper pattern is my least favorite pattern. It always seems to play like a reverse block. On these conditions, while I prefer to line up outside and be more direct, it is nearly the opposite of the ideal conditions for this ball. There is oil outside, no bump area, and dry boards inside.

Third, I happened to be the only left-hander on the pair last night. So, the chances of the pattern opening up were nil.

That said, using the Orange Ogre, I rolled games of 171, 218, 208, 209 for an 806 series, my best series to date in this league! The first game, I left an 8 pin, a 9 pin, and a pocket 7-10 before settling into a groove. Unfortunately, I needed the lanes to remind me of the drier boards in the middle, and I hooked past a few spares. After that, when I executed well, the ball did its job and carried the rack.

What I liked about the ball was its smooth arc to the pocket. This is characteristic of the Ogre core. While there may not be a magic ball to play difficult lane conditions, certainly consistency and predictability are pluses. This ball is a keeper.

Dislikes:
None, except maybe the orange color. Other than that, the ball performed exactly as expected.

Silver Ogre Review:

Color: Silver/Blue
Finish: 1500 polished
Low RG: 2.59
Differential: .029
Coverstock: Destroyer

Pin to CG: 5
Pre-drilling Top Weight: 3
Surface prep: Sanded to 2000, no polish
Layout:
3-3/8 PAP to Pin x 5-1/2 PAP to MB with 1-1/2 Pin to VAL buffer, or
30 degrees Angle to VAL, 3-3/8 PAP to Pin, 67 degrees Drilling Angle,
with balance hole 6-3/4 from Pin
Post-drilling Static Weights: 3/4 positive, 1/8 finger, 3/8 top

Likes:
This ball looks great on the rack.

Dislikes:
Compared to my benchmark ball, I wanted this ball to skid a little further, and turn a little harder. It does that, but unfortunately, it seems to have a mind of its own just when and how much to turn. The first real test was on Friday. I was bowling in a King of the Hill tournament, and the lanes were a little on the dry side, with clean back ends. I thought that would be perfect for this ball. Unfortunately, I spent most of the first 2 games trying to get lined up until I realized the ball was overreacting. For those games, I shot 200 and 185. After switching balls, I finished with 201 and 233 (out of the money).

To be sure to give the ball a fair review, on Sunday, I took it to where I bowl league. They have a great house shot that is playable from just about any angle. During my practice sessions, I like to throw at least one entire game with each of the six balls in my arsenal including my spare ball. Most of my games with all of my other equipment, including my spare ball, were in the 240's. The Silver Ogre...150's. I even bowled a couple of additional games with it trying different angles, from further out, to deeper inside, different hand positions, etc. It just did not seem to want to cooperate.

Sorry to say, I am not sure when I will be taking this one out of the bag again.

White Urethane Ogre Review:

Color: Gray/Blue/Black
Box Finish: 1500 polished
Low RG: 2.59
Differential: .034
Coverstock: Hard Urethane

Pin to CG: 1-13/16
Pre-drilling Top Weight: 2-1/2
Surface prep: Sanded to 4000, no polish
Layout:
5-3/8 PAP to Pin x 7-1/2 PAP to MB with 4-3/4 Pin to VAL buffer, or
70 degrees Angle to VAL, 5-3/8 PAP to Pin, 102 degrees Drilling Angle,
did not need a balance hole
Post-drilling Static Weights: 1/4 positive, 1/8 finger, 5/8 top

Likes:
This ball is designed for light oil. To test it, I chose to play the outside, drier portion of a local house shot. What I expected was what every other ball company has tried to sell me with their dry lanes ball. That is, something that either skids too much in the oil or hooks too much in the dry. In the past, on really dry lanes, I have often found it necessary to jump all the way down to plastic, gaining accuracy, but losing pin carry.

Wow, did this ball surprise me! I just lined up and threw strike after strike. The combination of hard urethane cover and the symmetrical Ogre core allowed me to play well outside of the Track area, and still score as if that was the shot! This ball fills a huge void that has existed in my arsenal since the introduction of reactive resin balls. It gives me nearly the same length and control as plastic, but with the extra pop on the backend to carry the rack.

I can hardly wait to use it at a tournament when the lanes are fried. Having this ball is going to be a definite competitive advantage.

Dislikes:
None

Pewter Particle Ogre Review:

Color: Pewter/Black
Box Finish: 1000 Abralon
Low RG: 2.58
Differential: .031
Coverstock: Ionic Particle

Pin to CG: 4-13/16
Pre-drilling Top Weight: 3-1/4
Surface prep: Sanded to 250, no polish
Layout:
3-3/8 PAP to Pin x 5-1/2 PAP to MB with 1-1/2 Pin to VAL buffer, or
30 degrees Angle to VAL, 3-3/8 PAP to Pin, 67 degrees Drilling Angle,
with balance hole 6-3/4 from Pin
Post-drilling Static Weights: 3/4 positive, 3/8 finger, 5/8 top

Likes:
This is one scary looking and feeling ball, like it could be made from ground up tombstone. More than any other ball I have reviewed, I believe this one best captures the spirit of the Ogre line. On the lanes, it is truly a beast. As soon as you pick up this ball, you know it is different. It almost feels fuzzy. On the lanes, the Ogre Particle has no regard for oil. It just overpowers the oil pattern and sets its own course to the pocket. There is nothing else like it, and I have thrown heavy oil balls from all the major manufacturers. Even after being sanded, those balls feel smooth compared to the Ogre Particle. Without a doubt, this is the heavy oil ball I have been searching for. It gives me a look on the lanes that is impossible without the kind of friction it generates. I love it! And to top everything off, it sells at a midlevel price.

I was planning to wait to bowl on the Scorpion or Shark patterns to review this ball, but I found out last night my PBAX league is not going to re-cycle through all the patterns as expected. We will be bowling two more weeks on Chameleon and two more on Cheetah. So, last night during practice on the Chameleon pattern, I started off rolling the Orange Ogre, and found a playable line rolling pretty straight up 3 board. I knew from that angle my scores would be very dependent on how well I executed. Out of curiosity, I pulled out the Ogre Particle and rolled a few balls. Immediately, I had to bump in 4 boards, then another 2 boards, then another 1 board. When I threw my first strike with it, I was swinging the ball over the 10 board. I liked the look that I had with the Ogre Particle, so I stuck with it. It essentially turned what would have been a challenging pattern into nearly a house shot!

The first game I rolled a 194. I was still bumping in looking for more oil to get the ball a little further down the lane. Eventually, I found a home around the 12th board, and finished with games of 210, 217, and 236, for an 857 series. That was enough to take the high scratch series for the entire league by 27 pins! And, it was very satisfying to win every point against the league's current high average bowler. Afterwards, he was very curious about what I was rolling. All I had to do was let him feel the surface of the ball, and he was sold. I am sure if he did not order one last night, he did today.

My advice...If you bowl on heavy oil, get this ball before the person you are bowling against does.

Dislikes:
None. I only wish I had discovered it sooner.

Glad you like the Particle. It does feel like fur. It takes you by surprise when you touch it. Rolls well and hits like a tank.

Hooray! I rolled a 300 in sanctioned league competition last night with my Visionary Orange Ogre. This is my first honor score of the 2009/2010 season, and my first since becoming a Visionary Test Staff member just a few months ago.

My games were 219, 300, 227, for a 746 series. This was a second Visionary Orange Ogre I purchased. This one was drilled pin down, label leverage, and sanded to 500. The ball starts early and has great continuation all the way through the pocket. I was standing 25, swinging it out over 10 at the arrows, and watching the ball go off the lane around the 9 pin (I am left-handed).

I can hardly wait for my PBA Experience League to start. I now have 7 Ogres, and each is drilled with the PBA patterns in mind.

Congrats Joe!

A friend of mine had the front 10 last week, pulled the ball inside on the 11th but still hit the pocket and left a 7 pin. So close yet so far away.

Thanks. One interesting note. In the 4th frame, I got up to bowl and did not notice the 7-pin was missing. I actually released the ball, and carried the rack minus the 7-pin. It was re-racked, and fortunately I struck again. So, I guess I actually threw 12 and 9/10 strikes for 300.