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#96774 - 06/30/09 06:37 PM Re: Mass Bias Position [Re: J_w73]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Great chart, thanks. I actually had a copy but could not remember where I got it.

I am still hoping some others will weigh in on the topic of mass bias position relative to VAL, track, and drilling angle...
_________________________
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#96780 - 06/30/09 07:10 PM Re: Mass Bias Position [Re: Joe Bowler]
J_w73 Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 1032
A/S/L: 37/M/Northern CA
on the ball you were talking about.. where is the mg in relation to the thumb hole..

the thumb hole sort of acts like a PSA .. that is what I have heard .. on a symetrical ball it will spin up to the thumb hole on a determinator..
if you think that tells you anything.. I am still unsure about that as well.. Morich says the ball will migrate to spin on the psa given enough time.. USBC shows that isn't what happens on the lanes.. I would agree with Morich if a constant and accelerated force is applied to the ball.. it will spin to the PSA.. but as the ball travels down the lane it doesn't have any added force to it..

I had this thought after I watched the how its made and I think they were at the ebonite factory and put the ball on the determinator and showed how the ball wanted to turn or steer itself..


Thought is , when the ball hits the dry and revs up that is when the mb "steering" goes into effect..
I could see how that might be the case that when the ball revd up, the mb/psa would fight the effect of the ball trying to straighten out and thus give you more continuous / more backend..

I have never heard anyone explain what the mb does in this way though .
_________________________
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+

Book Average 220

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#96787 - 06/30/09 09:08 PM Re: Mass Bias Position [Re: Joe Bowler]
CoachJim Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 4665
A/S/L: Reston, Virginia USA
Quote:
Further, other sources suggest that the center of the range, not one extreme or the other produces the strongest reaction. Recently I drilled up a ball with a 45% Drilling Angle that wound up around equidistant from my track and VAL, and sure enough, it has a much more angular breakpoint shape than expected.

Is this a flaw in Mo's system or documentation? Is the actual position of the mass bias between the track and the VAL more important than the somewhat relative Drilling Angle?


This is why he shows you how to figure out your "max" hook angle. Anything drilled farther from your max hook angle will arc more and anything drilled closer to the pap from there will roll more.

You said in the other post that your max hook angle was 60 degrees, according to the 30* x 4" from pap x 1/2" from the thumb angle to your pap. If you drill a mb angle at 60 degrees then the ball will have the most angular move on the back end. Less and you will have a hook stop type move and more and you will have more continuation.

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#96800 - 06/30/09 10:29 PM Re: Mass Bias Position [Re: J_w73]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: J_w73
on the ball you were talking about.. where is the mg in relation to the thumb hole..

the thumb hole sort of acts like a PSA .. that is what I have heard .. on a symetrical ball it will spin up to the thumb hole on a determinator..
if you think that tells you anything.. I am still unsure about that as well.. Morich says the ball will migrate to spin on the psa given enough time.. USBC shows that isn't what happens on the lanes.. I would agree with Morich if a constant and accelerated force is applied to the ball.. it will spin to the PSA.. but as the ball travels down the lane it doesn't have any added force to it..

I had this thought after I watched the how its made and I think they were at the ebonite factory and put the ball on the determinator and showed how the ball wanted to turn or steer itself..


Thought is , when the ball hits the dry and revs up that is when the mb "steering" goes into effect..
I could see how that might be the case that when the ball revd up, the mb/psa would fight the effect of the ball trying to straighten out and thus give you more continuous / more backend..

I have never heard anyone explain what the mb does in this way though .


The mass bias marker on the ball previously mentioned is about 2-1/2 inches from the edge of the thumb hole, approximately half way between my track and VAL. Other Cells that I have used, that have a smoother reaction, have the thumb either drilled through the mass bias marker, or right next to it.

Speaking of the DeTerminator, I found a link to the instruction manual which has additional information about calculating the mass bias position and its relative effect on different bowling balls:
http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/DeTerminator/DeTmanual.pdf

One of the things I found interesting was the suggestion that 3-3/8 to Pin x 5 inch to Mass Bias represents the "most dynamic layout" used for testing purposes. I have to wonder where that research came from, and if it is valid for all bowling balls?
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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#96802 - 06/30/09 10:40 PM Re: Mass Bias Position [Re: CoachJim]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: CoachJim
This is why he shows you how to figure out your "max" hook angle. Anything drilled farther from your max hook angle will arc more and anything drilled closer to the pap from there will roll more.

You said in the other post that your max hook angle was 60 degrees, according to the 30* x 4" from pap x 1/2" from the thumb angle to your pap. If you drill a mb angle at 60 degrees then the ball will have the most angular move on the back end. Less and you will have a hook stop type move and more and you will have more continuation.


What you are saying makes sense and agrees with my test results, but I did not see that spelled out in either the Dual Angle or Dual Thumb documentation, or anything connecting the two techniques. For the intended benchmark drilling, it did not make sense to me to use a "max" hook angle, so I did not see how calculating that was relevant...until now, and then only in the context of NOT using the max hook angle for a benchmark drilling.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

Top
#96817 - 07/01/09 01:45 AM Re: Mass Bias Position [Re: Joe Bowler]
J_w73 Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 1032
A/S/L: 37/M/Northern CA
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler
Originally Posted By: J_w73
on the ball you were talking about.. where is the mg in relation to the thumb hole..

the thumb hole sort of acts like a PSA .. that is what I have heard .. on a symetrical ball it will spin up to the thumb hole on a determinator..
if you think that tells you anything.. I am still unsure about that as well.. Morich says the ball will migrate to spin on the psa given enough time.. USBC shows that isn't what happens on the lanes.. I would agree with Morich if a constant and accelerated force is applied to the ball.. it will spin to the PSA.. but as the ball travels down the lane it doesn't have any added force to it..

I had this thought after I watched the how its made and I think they were at the ebonite factory and put the ball on the determinator and showed how the ball wanted to turn or steer itself..


Thought is , when the ball hits the dry and revs up that is when the mb "steering" goes into effect..
I could see how that might be the case that when the ball revd up, the mb/psa would fight the effect of the ball trying to straighten out and thus give you more continuous / more backend..

I have never heard anyone explain what the mb does in this way though .


The mass bias marker on the ball previously mentioned is about 2-1/2 inches from the edge of the thumb hole, approximately half way between my track and VAL. Other Cells that I have used, that have a smoother reaction, have the thumb either drilled through the mass bias marker, or right next to it.

Speaking of the DeTerminator, I found a link to the instruction manual which has additional information about calculating the mass bias position and its relative effect on different bowling balls:
http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/DeTerminator/DeTmanual.pdf

One of the things I found interesting was the suggestion that 3-3/8 to Pin x 5 inch to Mass Bias represents the "most dynamic layout" used for testing purposes. I have to wonder where that research came from, and if it is valid for all bowling balls?


I wrote ebonite for some clarification on mb placement.. I went with them because I like alot of their approach to the technical aspect of bowling.. here is their response.. It somewhat substantiates what you had stated from the Jayhawk pdf

From ebonite
"The general rule is that it should be in the 4 1/4 to 5 1/2 inch area from the PAP. More toward the lower, increased violence down the lane, toward the higher more smoothness. Lower than 4 1/4 and you risk hook set. Higher than 5 1/2 risks a ball that flares so mild, it barely hooks."


I'm not sure is some of the terminology is 100% accurate but I think I get the gist of what they are saying.. I have asked for more clarification..
_________________________
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+

Book Average 220

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#96819 - 07/01/09 02:10 AM Re: Mass Bias Position [Re: J_w73]
J_w73 Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 1032
A/S/L: 37/M/Northern CA
joe bowler.. have you seen this morich asymmetrical layout guide. I think this was the precursor to the dual angle layout technique..

https://www.buddiesproshop.com/36/Asymetrical_Layout_Guide.htm


I kind of like it a little better than the dual angle guide.. as it takes into account the axis tilt and the mb location that is best..
also it has a description for what the ball reaction will be for the pin and mb distances.. If I match up the chart to the angles in the dual angle layout technique it substantiates that around 60 deg is the strong break / big backend position..( the numbers in the chart are not the same so you have to extrapolate what the angles would be) Also looking at the axis tilt chart it jives with the mb positions that work for me.. I have a low axis tilt and a big track circumference and the mass bias positions suggested are what works best for me..
by the way.. my strong angle based on the morich double thumb is 60 deg also..

also.. looking at the chart.. the drill angle on your cell that was 4.5 x 4.5 looks like it would be around 55 to 60 degrees.. right around the angle we have been seeing confirmed as the strongest backend reaction..

the thing I don't know is if it is actually the angle or the mb to pap distance.. all common pin lengths 3 3/8 to 5 1/2 pin to pap .. the 60 degree, stong backend reaction mb location is right around the 4 1/2" to 5 1/2 " distance to the PAP.. which coincides what ebonite was talking about.
_________________________
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+

Book Average 220

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#96820 - 07/01/09 02:20 AM Re: Mass Bias Position [Re: Joe Bowler]
J_w73 Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 1032
A/S/L: 37/M/Northern CA
Originally Posted By: Joe Bowler

One of the things I found interesting was the suggestion that 3-3/8 to Pin x 5 inch to Mass Bias represents the "most dynamic layout" used for testing purposes. I have to wonder where that research came from, and if it is valid for all bowling balls?


looking at the morich chart 3 3/8 pin x 5" mb is right around the 55 - 60 deg drill angle.. I think.

_________________________
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+

Book Average 220

Top
#96823 - 07/01/09 06:15 AM Re: Mass Bias Position [Re: Joe Bowler]
CoachJim Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 4665
A/S/L: Reston, Virginia USA
Quote:
What you are saying makes sense and agrees with my test results, but I did not see that spelled out in either the Dual Angle or Dual Thumb documentation, or anything connecting the two techniques.


No it didn't spell it out directly, I had to read the dual angle and the dual angle a few times before I saw where he was going with the max hook angle, otherwise there was not a real reason for figuring out the max hook angle in that article, as it didn't relate to the dual thumb weight hole.

At least you figured it out, I couldn't get my ball driller to see the importance of figuring it out before laying out a ball for someone. You really should use your max hook mb angle for all drillings except for those intended to arc or hook/set.

Quote:
then only in the context of NOT using the max hook angle for a benchmark drilling.


A benchmark ball is used for testing the waters, the ball should be drilled middle pin to leverage middle pin to val distance x middle mb angle which would be your max hook angle.

If you want an arc drilling then you would use a mb placement farther from your max to enhance the reaction, and closer to the pap to enhance a hook set drilling.


Edited by CoachJim (07/01/09 06:21 AM)

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#96840 - 07/01/09 09:55 AM Re: Mass Bias Position [Re: J_w73]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3824
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: J_w73
From ebonite
"The general rule is that it (Mass Bias) should be in the 4 1/4 to 5 1/2 inch area from the PAP. More toward the lower, increased violence down the lane, toward the higher more smoothness. Lower than 4 1/4 and you risk hook set. Higher than 5 1/2 risks a ball that flares so mild, it barely hooks."


That's excellent...a clear, concise, specific, and practical explanation. The best I have seen so far.
_________________________
USBC (2008-2016):
300s: 9
800s: 7
House: 239
Sport: 210

PBA (2014-2015): $850

Heavy: Nano, HyperCell, Eternal Cell
Medium: IQ Tour, Tour SiC, Tag
Light: Spare+, Tank, Rebel Tank
Spares: WD

Internet advice is offered free, as is, at your own risk.

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