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#96552 - 06/28/09 06:21 PM Re: working inside of ball [Re: Handful]
10PinGaloot Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2094
A/S/L: 65/m/ Woodburn, OR
Your new video looks great. Did you score well? Of course that would depend on lane conditions...
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#96553 - 06/28/09 07:07 PM Re: working inside of ball [Re: 10PinGaloot]
Lefty Offline
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 2356
A/S/L: 37 / M / Rochester, NY
Quote:

Boy this just kills the sides of my finger. And the pad of my index finger is throbbing. Feels like the ball sitting on this is ripping it off my hand.


If your fingers are hurting that much, I would guess it's from squeezing. I can see your ring and middle finger hurting a little since the ball will be comming off with a little pressure where it wasn't before, but the pad of your index finger shouldn't hurt that bad. Are you tensing up your hand and putting pressure on the ball with your index finger? Your hand should be pretty relaxed.

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#96554 - 06/28/09 07:15 PM Re: working inside of ball [Re: Lefty]
Lefty Offline
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 2356
A/S/L: 37 / M / Rochester, NY
I also forgot to mention that you look much better.

When I just went back and looked at the video, in the back swing of the slo-mo portion, your index finger looks bent. That indicates to me that you're putting a lot of pressure on the ball with that finger, and if you're doing that, you're more than likely squeezing with the rest of your hand as well.

The second thing I noticed is that you're turning the ball early. The ball should really be at your ankle when everything unloads, and you start to come around the ball back by your trail foot.

But again, it looks much better.

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#96565 - 06/28/09 10:45 PM Re: working inside of ball [Re: Lefty]
Handful Offline
High Roller

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 399
A/S/L: 32/male/St Pete, FL/ usa
Originally Posted By: Lefty
I also forgot to mention that you look much better.

When I just went back and looked at the video, in the back swing of the slo-mo portion, your index finger looks bent. That indicates to me that you're putting a lot of pressure on the ball with that finger, and if you're doing that, you're more than likely squeezing with the rest of your hand as well.

I think with just the fact I have to focus on holding my hand in this position I was probably squeezing with the grip. Thanks for noticing that, hopefully as I get more comfortable with this, I can relax the grip without loosing the position

Originally Posted By: Lefty
The second thing I noticed is that you're turning the ball early. The ball should really be at your ankle when everything unloads, and you start to come around the ball back by your trail foot.

But again, it looks much better.

Yea, story of my life. I don't even try to turn the wrist at all but it happens anyway. this is a forever struggle with me. the few times I do stay behind the ball until my ankle, I get nothing on the ball and it falls off my hand.

thanks
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#96566 - 06/28/09 10:49 PM Re: working inside of ball [Re: 10PinGaloot]
Handful Offline
High Roller

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 399
A/S/L: 32/male/St Pete, FL/ usa
Originally Posted By: SpareMe
Your new video looks great. Did you score well? Of course that would depend on lane conditions...


Thanks. as for the score, I have no idea. I usually don't pay attention to the scores while practicing. Most of the time my first shot of each frame is practicing corner pin spares and my second shot is focused on my strike shot. This way I know I will get 2 shots for each frame.
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#96581 - 06/29/09 07:09 AM Re: working inside of ball [Re: Handful]
Lefty Offline
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 2356
A/S/L: 37 / M / Rochester, NY
Quote:

Yea, story of my life. I don't even try to turn the wrist at all but it happens anyway. this is a forever struggle with me. the few times I do stay behind the ball until my ankle, I get nothing on the ball and it falls off my hand.


But you weren't in this position when you got to the line before. smile

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#96617 - 06/29/09 02:07 PM Re: working inside of ball [Re: Lefty]
Handful Offline
High Roller

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 399
A/S/L: 32/male/St Pete, FL/ usa
Originally Posted By: Lefty


But you weren't in this position when you got to the line before. smile


I think before I was already on the outside of the ball the entire swing?
No potential to turn wrist to outside if I was already there.
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#96623 - 06/29/09 02:25 PM Re: working inside of ball [Re: Handful]
10PinGaloot Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2094
A/S/L: 65/m/ Woodburn, OR
Notwithstanding scores, I am curious as to whether you can actually get side roll using this method, without also getting a generous dose of mid-roll?

This looks similar to some videos I've seen on Youtube, and I'm just curious how the ball hits the pocket when you do this. Lefty or anyone is welcome to answer my query...

My understanding is that mid-roll would lengthen your shot.
_________________________
"If it ain't workin', you're either throwing the ball wrong or throwing the wrong ball."
"Follow the oil!"
"Dry lanes ain't worth a shot!"
"I love the smell of lane conditioner in the morning!"
current avatar is Gabby Hayes. Looks a lot like me! smile


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#96626 - 06/29/09 02:43 PM Re: working inside of ball [Re: 10PinGaloot]
cgeorg Offline


Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 3567
A/S/L: Pittsburgh, Pa
Michael Fagan, Tommy Jones, PDW, Sean Rash, Chris Barnes, Mike DeVaney all use this method. To name a few. They tend not to have problems with roll (though I feel the Chris Barnes could often use a bit more axis rotation, that's not because he can't get it, it's because he chooses not to).

What exactly do you mean by mid-roll - 45* axis rotation type shots? You'll get more length out of a shot with more axis rotation (side roll), also more length from getting more axis tilt. More axis tilt will cut down on total hook and backend reaction (in most cases - extreme fried lanes may be one exception), as will less axis rotation.

In any case, you can get any of those reactions with the "inside the ball" technique. What the technique provides is:
- Hand more behind the ball allows you to impart more energy into the ball, in the form of speed and rotation.
- Hand starting inside the ball gives it more room to turn as you move to the finger exit point, which leads to more revs.

If your hand starts on the side of the ball, you can't easily impart force on it, because that would push it inside of your target. You also only get revs from the ball coming off thumb first, then fingers. A small bit may be added by a cup-uncup motion.

If you do the same, with the hand behind/inside the ball up to the release point, you can more easily impart force on it, and revs come from both the movement of the fingers and the ball rolling off thumb then fingers.

You get more angular and translational velocity, which leads to more energy at the pins.
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#96635 - 06/29/09 04:09 PM Re: working inside of ball [Re: cgeorg]
10PinGaloot Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2094
A/S/L: 65/m/ Woodburn, OR
Originally Posted By: cgeorg

What exactly do you mean by mid-roll


Mid-roll being rotation around vertical axis, so 100% mid-roll is a spinner.
side-roll being rotation around an axis pointing towards the headpin, and 45% side roll being a typical shot.

My question is if your hand starts on the inside and rotates around the ball to the outside, it seems that this would generate rotation around the vertical axis, while the ball dropping off the fingers would be the action generating the side roll.

All of the bowlers you mentioned have different releases from each other. I would compare this release to Mike Devnaey and Wes Malotte rather than those other guys. I think PDW and Fagan do a variation on the Slowinski drop-off release. Chris Barnes gets his revs by coming over the top of the ball, combined with his yo-yo motion.

Not trying to start an argument. I want to try this for myself but can't visualize exactly how it would generate more revs at 45* axis of rotation than simply holding your hand still and letting the ball drop off it. I know Slowinski says it does, but I can't see why.

I'm always looking for a better way to release the ball....
_________________________
"If it ain't workin', you're either throwing the ball wrong or throwing the wrong ball."
"Follow the oil!"
"Dry lanes ain't worth a shot!"
"I love the smell of lane conditioner in the morning!"
current avatar is Gabby Hayes. Looks a lot like me! smile


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