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#86785 - 04/05/09 09:15 PM Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. [Re: VFF57]
xtraqewl Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 4
A/S/L: 23/f/67
gasp!.... the old ladies are all gonna lose their jobs?

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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#86814 - 04/05/09 11:29 PM Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. [Re: xtraqewl]
Aaron Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 03/08/09
Posts: 54
A/S/L: Singapore
Not to sound racist so if any of the PC police read this, get over it! I have lived all over the world and one thing that I have noticed is that no matter where you are, if you go in a casino, there is nearly always a disproportionate number of Asians that are gambling! I now live in Singapore and all the centers that I bowl at have signs stating "NO GAMBLING". However, there are bookies (for lack of a better term) roaming the centers during every league match. You can bet on anything - splits, high games, 10 pin spares (7 for lefties), 10 pin spare in the opening frame, etc..... on your game or anyone else's. The money that people are putting up is theirs so it is none of my business (I think politicians should adopt the same attitude). It is really rather amusing at times and adds an element of entertainment to the leagues. The only time that it gets annoying is when someone leaves a gambling roll (7-10 split) for example, and cannot find a bookie! We all have to wait!
At my home center, on Wednesday nights, there is something that I can only compare to a "Cock Fight" taking place. A crowd of around 30 people are betting on every roll of a few guys playing. There seems to be a lot of money changing hands but the action is so fast (and in Mandarin Chinese) that I really do not know what is going on.
Again, though, it's their money and their business!

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#86831 - 04/06/09 05:09 AM Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. [Re: Aaron]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9814
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Asian or not, that's just too cool. Wish we had that here. there are a few teams that I bowl with who will routinely wager on every ball. But, that's just between themselves. It is no where as organized as this.

This would be one way to increase the interest in bowling, as I see it.

Our house runs many wagering games. Depending on your average, you have a challenge to bowl strikes in various frames, like the 3-6-9th frame in one game for 160 bowlers and 2-4-7 and strike out in 10th for more established bowlers. Pays 5-1.

They run clean 30 pots that roll over if no winners, and 6 in a row strike pots that have been paid out weekly. they are going to raise it to 8.

Another house near here runs king of the hill tournaments every Weekend. Saturday is open, and Sunday is for over 50. Minimum $400 first place and higher depending on the number of entrants.

Others in our league run:
Hi game scratch and cap for each game
Doubles pots, enter with as many partners as you wish
K of H scr and cap
Survivor cap, and second chance survivor
Skins pot per set of 4 lanes

A bowler could easily wager $40-50 per night, and many do.
The most I ever came away with was $400 for a night
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#86973 - 04/07/09 01:11 PM Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. [Re: Mkirchie]
shotcat Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 7
A/S/L: 47/m/mi/usa
In Michigan it was about 2 things. The first was gambling, like 50/50 tickets that are only about luck not skill. The other thing that got caught up in it was the liquor control commission. The law states that on a liscensed premises there shall be no gambling devices, such as cards, dice, etc. That is no doubt from when proabition ended and those who wanted to keep evil liquor away from evil gambling. Anyway, Euker and cards have been going in bars since ? and no one (authorities) have enforced those old LCC laws since who knows when or ever. As a proprietor with 50/50s going on and cards on every table some knights I called LCC to get an answer. I was first told that no one knew how it was going to be ruled and if I hadn't any violations or warning don't worry and watch for a new ruling to come down. LCC and local police didn't care or want to deal with it, and didn't have the manpower even if they did. A while later I heard that 50/50s under $50.00 were ok. I called again find out the lady at LCC said she had heard that but didn't know where it came from, and that 50/50s were probably more in the state gaming area. I haven't thought about it, I suppose LCC, state gaming, and law enforcement have better things to worry about. Last I knew no laws had changed. There is not muck money or political up side in the whole thing, it's just ticks off a lot of peopl. Ni politition wanted to deal with it, and they had all played cards in a bar too.

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#87051 - 04/08/09 06:51 AM Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. [Re: shotcat]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9814
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Hey Mark, just found out that the highest pot game around here was won last week. Elk Grove Bowl (NW of Chicago), has been running a strike pot for years, and without a winner, the pot has rolled over for a few years.

To win, you needed 3 strikes in frames 1-3 in game 1. 4 Strikes in frames 4-7 in game 2, and strike out from frame 8 on in game 3.

I don't know haw many years it has been going. But, the winner last week, took home over $19,000.

I don't know if they withheld any taxes. Doubt it.

I wasn't so fortunate last night. I made my weekly $20 contribution, though.
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#87052 - 04/08/09 07:09 AM Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. [Re: Dennis Michael]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9814
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Here is the Michigan Law that I pulled from Bowl.com. Circulate it to your Congressmen.

750.310a Applicability of chapter; bowling game or bowling card game.
(1) Subject to subsection (3), this chapter does not apply to a bowling game or a bowling card game conducted in a bowling center to which all of the following apply:
(a) The total amount of the participation fee per person per game does not exceed $5.00.
(b) The total prize payout per league per game does not exceed $1,000.00 and is comprised only of participation fees.
(2) This section applies only to a game that is sponsored solely by 1 league and whose participants are members of the same league.
(3) The bowling center in which the bowling game or bowling card game is conducted shall not receive a percentage of the participation fees or prize money from bowling games or bowling card games for which a stake or prize is awarded.
(4) As used in this section:
(a) "Bowling center " means a bowling alley with a minimum of 5 lanes.
(b) "Bowling card game " means a card game held in conjunction with a bowling game, the results of which depend on the outcome of the bowling game. Bowling card game does not include any of the following:
(i) A mechanical or electronic simulation of a bowling card game.
(ii) Roulette, beano, cards unless used in a bowling card game, dice, wheels of fortune, video poker, slot machines, or other similar games in which winning depends primarily upon fortuitous or accidental circumstances beyond the control of the player.
(iii) A game that includes a mechanical or physical device that directly or indirectly impairs or thwarts the skill of the player.
(c) "Bowling game " means not more than 3 sets of 10 frames of bowling. Bowling game does not include any of the following:
(i) A mechanical or electronic simulation of a bowling game.
(ii) Roulette, beano, cards unless used in a bowling card game, dice, wheels of fortune, video poker, slot machines, or other similar games in which winning depends primarily upon fortuitous or accidental circumstances beyond the control of the player.
(iii) A game that includes a mechanical or physical device that directly or indirectly impairs or thwarts the skill of the player.
(d) "Participation fee " means a fee that is charged by the league to a participant in a game for which a stake or prize is awarded.
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#87058 - 04/08/09 08:52 AM Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. [Re: Dennis Michael]
Mkirchie Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 873
A/S/L: 39/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
I don't know haw many years it has been going. But, the winner last week, took home over $19,000.


Wow, that's a nice chunk of money. Never bowled leagues at a house that does those strike jackpots, but I've bowled tournaments at ones in NJ that had them.

Also, thanks for posting the law from Michigan, I'll have to see if I can get anything going, although I just heard from someone about an article in our local paper where I found out that my house was one of the ones that was cited. Also in the article is this statement from the executive director of both Proprietors Associations in NJ,

"The commission only oversees games of chance. Games of skill, such as high-game pots and card games, should not be affected by the raffle penalty because they are not based on chance, Karten said."

I'm bringing this article to league Friday night to see if we can get pots and card games reinstated, although I'm sure there's others there who will have seen it and will say something about it too. Power in numbers.

Mark
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#87067 - 04/08/09 10:11 AM Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. [Re: Mkirchie]
Steve Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 75
A/S/L: 27/m/IN
You would think there would be bigger fish to fry in the state house, other than what a bunch of people do with their own money on a friday night!
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#87153 - 04/08/09 11:14 PM Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. [Re: Steve]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Steve, it's not a matter of what people are doing with their own money on league night but rather the fact that the state isn't getting anything from it.
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#87161 - 04/08/09 11:33 PM Re: NJ cracks down on pots, brackets, etc. [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9814
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Mark, there are a couple of PBA bowlers in our league, and we talked about the dilemma in NJ. One mentioned that he heard there was a significant payout of some kind of Bowling pot game, $10,000 was the number he mentioned. And, there was a resulting lawsuit filed because the winner was claimed NOT to have entered legitimately.

The speculation I got was that there was some publication of this, and the lawsuit brought all of this about.

Don't know if that is the real story, but that's what is talked about around here in the regional Pro circles.
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