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#77278 - 01/27/09 02:13 AM Re: Bowling needs a new handicap system [Re: BisNDbowler]
Brian Longo Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
Originally Posted By: BisNDbowler
Nice point. This is my first year bowling seriously and my average is mid 140's. The problem is with my fairly rapid progression I'm shooting mainly 170-190. This is a good advantage for my league team, but the unfairness came in tournaments last week. I cleaned house with my huge handicap, and it was unfair. I ended up splitting bracket profits with the 2nd place guy to clear my mind a bit. Even if I'm the beneficiary, I don't feel good about this kind of advantage, it's just not right.

Enjoy it while you can because soon you will be on the other end of things. No need to be apologetic - it's called "the natural progression of life." I'm sure at some point in time that other bowler was cleaning house when he was improving. I did my housecleaning in junior bowling travel league when I went from a conventional grip plastic ball (with my 126 average with 36 games just before Christmas) to my fingertip LT-48 and finished the season with a 161 average for 84 games (my average over the last 48 games was about 187) and shot about 5 600 series in the last 16 weeks. And because of my improvement my team won the travel league championship which, in our area, was a big deal because there were 20 teams representing 7 different bowling centers.

But it's your conscience, man, and it's not for me to say whether you did the right or wrong thing. I'm just telling you that I would've kept the spoils because you earned it by getting better - it wasn't "dumb luck" or anything like that.
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Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#77280 - 01/27/09 02:41 AM Re: Bowling needs a new handicap system [Re: Brian Longo]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
A lot of tournaments have a 10 pin re rate rule. You have to rerate yourself if your current average is 10 pins or more higher then your book. This happened to me. But in tournaments that didn't call for that, I cleaned up. It lasted one year, until my average evened out. So I agree with Brian. Everyone seems to have a year in this state. Enjoy it and when you can (according to the rules) take advantage of it.

We used to have a monthly 10 gamer at one of our local houses. I was rerated twice there. But kept on bowling and kept on cashing, eventually it evened out. Another center had a monthly 8 gamer on a different weekend and I bowled that once and was told "do not come back". Didn't have to worry to much since the center closed within 6 months.

Erin



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#77388 - 01/27/09 07:21 PM Re: Bowling needs a new handicap system [Re: untutored]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: untutored
I don't know if I'd call 100% handicap leagues fair. Usually, lower-average bowlers find it much easier to improve over the course of the season--at the end of the league, most of the 115 bowlers end up as 130 bowlers, but they're still handicapped as though they're 120 bowlers.


I was in a league two years ago that was scratch with a max team average of 830. Not that it's foolproof, but that's one way to blend scratch and handicap formats.


I bowled in a mens league for a couple of seasons that was 100% of team difference. It also used a 7 point system, 1 point per a game scratch and handicap and 1 for total. Both years the top average teams were near the top. The second year the high average team won both halves to win the league outright. As long as there is no sandbagging the high average team is always at an advantage. They are more likely to hit average on a consistent basis. It's true the low average bowlers have more room to improve but the higher average bowlers are more likely to make their average on a consistent basis.
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#77551 - 01/28/09 03:05 PM Re: Bowling needs a new handicap system [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
NewEnglandBowler Offline
High Roller

Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 364
A/S/L: 24/m/MA, USA
my morning juniors league is 90% of 200, one point for each game and one point for total fall, no split divisions except one separate for the bantams.

last year, my team which was the second highest average team on the league, won the first half by beating the lowest average team, who was ahead by 3 points going into the position round week, for all four points. this year, after a 30-18 first half for 5th place, we are 10-2 the first three weeks of the first half and in second place.

maybe this is an exception, but the high average teams don't have a problem against low average teams in our league. Next year i believe i am "graduating" to the adult leagues, so it will be interesting to see how that works.
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#77555 - 01/28/09 03:41 PM Re: Bowling needs a new handicap system [Re: NewEnglandBowler]
30 Clean Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 147
A/S/L: 58/M/Tampa, FL.
Personally, I don't think a new handicap system is needed but rather a way to police the people who are abusing the system. I've bowled with people who kept their averages artifically low so they could get extra handicap in tournaments. For example, one guy would consistently average around 160 in league play but shoot well over 200 in tournaments. I couldn't count the amount of times he cashed big-time because of that.

You would think with computer technology there would be a way to monitor someone's tournament scores vs. their league scores and see that they consistently shoot much worse in league play and clean up in tournaments.
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#77567 - 01/28/09 06:46 PM Re: Bowling needs a new handicap system [Re: 30 Clean]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: 30 Clean
You would think with computer technology there would be a way to monitor someone's tournament scores vs. their league scores and see that they consistently shoot much worse in league play and clean up in tournaments.


The issue is having everything reported. Most leagues only turn in end of year averages and those don't show up until USBC updates them and rarely do tournaments report scores to anyone unless it's an honor score. Some do keep records to keep track of those that have bowled in the tournament before and some will re-rate, but most just don't care as long as the entry fees are coming in.
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#77668 - 01/29/09 01:01 PM Re: Bowling needs a new handicap system [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
bdgf06 Offline
Bantam

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 16
A/S/L: 27/M/PA/USA
My league on Monday nights has an innovative solution to the problem of equality in league play.

First, we have a 30 week season that is split into two 15-week halves. For the first half, last season's second half average is used for returning bowlers. Sponsors who bowl in the league are put on their team, and everyone else is divvied out (including team captains) so that the total team average to start out is within 1-2 pins of each other for each team. This process is repeated for the second half, using the first half averages of bowlers to do the same process.

Benefits:
This allows all teams to start off on relatively equal footing and there is no handicap in the league (it is basically a scratch league) and includes bowlers of all levels in the league. Nearly every year each half is still up for grabs and down to the wire in the last week, even last game of the half. This is exactly what happened last half.

Cons:
The teams are changed around each half, so people probably would need to get used to the idea of switching teams.

While this isn't a 100% solution for everybody it is a creative idea, and since the handicap system is not used at all and all skill levels of bowlers are still included and have an equal chance of winning, you are not discouraging lower-level bowlers from participating.
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#77718 - 01/29/09 06:09 PM Re: Bowling needs a new handicap system [Re: bdgf06]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9807
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
The real problem with handicap is that it attempts to lump all bowlers together. A 100 bowler is roughly equaled to a 220 bowler by something called a handicap. But, it may only be 90 or 80% of the difference. So, it is never equal. Why don't we structure leagues so like averages bowl against like averages. Let's say, all under 160 bowl in the same league. Then 160 to 190. And, 190 and above.

Granted, there may not be enough bowlers to structure complete leagues in all Houses. But, it is another way to think of it.

I know my racketball league is structured this way, and it works pretty well.
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#77725 - 01/29/09 07:43 PM Re: Bowling needs a new handicap system [Re: Dennis Michael]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
The real problem with handicap is that it attempts to lump all bowlers together. A 100 bowler is roughly equaled to a 220 bowler by something called a handicap. But, it may only be 90 or 80% of the difference. So, it is never equal. Why don't we structure leagues so like averages bowl against like averages. Let's say, all under 160 bowl in the same league. Then 160 to 190. And, 190 and above.

Granted, there may not be enough bowlers to structure complete leagues in all Houses. But, it is another way to think of it.

I know my racketball league is structured this way, and it works pretty well.


The simple answer to the red text is people want to bowl on teams or in leagues with friends and family, many who are of vastly different skill levels. Getting a few leagues like this might be possible but converting the majority of leagues to this is going to be pretty much impossible.
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Calvin's Highs
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HG:300
HS:763

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#77727 - 01/29/09 08:00 PM Re: Bowling needs a new handicap system [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9807
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I hear you Cal. And, at the same time I hear teams of 150 bowlers constantly complain about the team with all the top bowlers on it. Handicap in itself, just doesn't cut it, especially when there is only 80-90% calculated.

Then, if you go the other way of 100% difference, the better bowlers complain.

I guess the only time I don't hear complaints are in the few leagues around here where the team scratch average has a cap. 4 bowlers at 840 max or the like. At least there is parity and little to no complaining.

I know a couple of years ago, I was taken off a team because my sanctioned average put that team over the cap. As the newest bowler, I was the one to leave.


Edited by Dennis Michael (01/29/09 08:02 PM)
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