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#7658 - 07/21/06 03:11 PM Level Playing Field
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Most on this forum know how I feel about 100 % and negative handicap. Yada yada yada

But we tried something different in our summer league this season. We're 9 weeks into the summer league of 14 weeks. 4 person team, handicap 90% of 210 or 220 (can't remember). What we changed in our league meeting was the point alloutment per game. Instead of the 1,1,1 and total equals 1 we went to 2,2,2, and total equals 1. We have a few teams that are at or darn near 0 handicap (including ours). That would be the higher average bowlers and the ones everyone thinks should still win because its only 90% handicap. This time, the top 3 places in the league have team average totals of 538, 601, 541. The big average teams are all in the middle or lower part of the pack. The only thing I can think of that's changed is that point alloutment which makes the game wins more valuable then the total pin win.

I'm wondering if others have bowled with a similar point breakdown and what your results were for the league. And for those that want to try something new offer this point system up next time you start in a league.


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#7659 - 07/21/06 06:03 PM Re: Level Playing Field
Bikedad Offline
High Roller

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 347
A/S/L: 57/male/New Zealand. Right han...
Hi Atochabsh, that is interesting and is close to the system we use in the league I bowl in. The league is a trios, mixed with the handicap set at 100% of 190. Each game, like yours, is worth 2 points and the overall total is two but there is an additional 1 point per match available for head to head competition. That is, you bowl against your opposite number as an individual and whoever has the highest total (scratch plus handicap) at the end of the three games gets the point. That gives some additional edge to the matchup and the team will benefit from points gained. That makes eleven points available for the match. Like your league, the high average teams are not at the top of the heap and the spread of points is quite close. We just finished the first half of our season and for the final match there were still five teams capable of taking the top slot. This is a ten team league. Our league has run this system for the past three season "halves" and there has been a different winner each time, which is a huge improvement over the previous years where the same team won everything without fail. Strangely, the top bowlers do not mind the situation and have even split up their teams and worked in with other bowlers to even out the averages a bit, so that their team can have some benefit from the handicap system (the first time they tried this system, the top team from the previous year finished at the bottom!) The competition is still tough but it is enjoyable.
I hope that you are enjoying your league as much as I do, even though you may not be at the top of the heap.
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#7660 - 07/21/06 07:18 PM Re: Level Playing Field
sawmill Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 153
A/S/L: ??/M/AZ
Erin, that's exactly the points system that we use in our 30-team men's handicap league. The handicap is 90% off of 220 IIRC. The good thing is that whichever team wins two games is the points winner for the night regardless of the series outcome. Whereas. you can have ties with the 4-point system. I also like the fact that tie games result in one point per team instead of 0.5 points which makes the standings a bit easier to parse. That happened to my team several times last year. Can still get 0.5 points by tieing a series which happened to my team once last year and, of course, we would have to finish 0.5 points out of the playoffs. Heartbreak. And as you noted, the high-average teams don't automatically run away with the league. A high-average team can win the series on the strength of one good game but still lose the points for the night by losing the other two games even if they were close.

#7661 - 07/21/06 08:29 PM Re: Level Playing Field
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Total doesn't count equal to the games and that seems to have made the difference.


#7662 - 07/21/06 11:52 PM Re: Level Playing Field
Angel Offline

Registered: 02/02/01
Posts: 401
A/S/L: F/So Cal
Quite a few of the scratch and hcp leagues out this way use a 7 point system and have for at least the 15 years I've been bowling in the Valley. It seems to be the norm now.

I definitely prefer it because series is a "bonus" to win, but to win one game and eek out series isn't the same as to pull out two close games.

I think there are few really, really old leagues that use the old 3 games no series in their scratch leagues, but there is so little movement among teams it seems halfway through one team or the other has won it outright.

I definitely recommend the 7 point system and have seen all types of teams win the leagues. You'll get quite a few 5-2 and 4-3 splits in addition to the 7-0s so there is a way to move up more quickly.
Angel Zobel-Rodriguez

#7663 - 07/23/06 11:06 AM Re: Level Playing Field
Goodah Chunky Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 297
A/S/L: ??/M/State of Euphoria
Strange, the 7-point system is the norm here in Chicagoland. IMO it emphasizes team effort rather than the 25-30 system adopted by a few leagues (usually where the majority of its players average 195+), which emphasizes more on individual effort thru head-to-head scoring...
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#7664 - 07/24/06 05:56 AM Re: Level Playing Field
Silent Mike Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 998
A/S/L: 39/M/Poconos PA
I've always been on 7 point leagues but on Fridays we use the 4 point system. The 7 point system is better IMO something about taking a game and wood being equal to winning 2 bothers me.

On my Sat Winter league they used a different 7 point system. 1 point each game, 2 points total wood, 2 points high game. It added a different wrinkle to the game and gave you a chance to make up some ground but again it can help you and hurt you. I think it aided teams that weren't as good, line it up once and win by a lot and you could take 5 out of 7 as long as you kept the other 2 close.
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#7665 - 07/24/06 10:31 AM Re: Level Playing Field
Tyveil Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 10/20/03
Posts: 463
A/S/L: Kansas
Sounds like the 7-point system is something our leagues should look into. They've been pushing raising the handicaps for the last few years. Most leagues are at 80-85% handicap but some have gone to 90% and every year they try to push it up even suggesting 100%. I'm really not a fan of that because when you're a high average bowler it's much harder to improve (by pincount). The thing is every single league in the house has always used the 4 point system and I'm not sure how I would sell the 7-point system to them. Any change is usually met with hostility.
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#7666 - 07/24/06 01:01 PM Re: Level Playing Field
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">I'm not sure how I would sell the 7-point system to them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">It was just suggested in ours. Saying the game points make winning the games more important then the amount you win the games by. Since I could at the time see no problem with it, we tried it. Maybe if you try it again, we'll not get the same type of team position results. Who knows.


#7667 - 07/25/06 12:25 AM Re: Level Playing Field
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9820
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Our Wednesday night Men's Classic league has always been a 7 point system. We have two half winners who bowl off on the final night. In the 3 years I have bowled in it, there has never been a half winner repeat. That's 6 different half winners and 3 different champs. 2 points per game makes a difference.
Next year, I will also bowl in a Classic league at a neighboring house. 24 teams, a 185 minimun average to enter. there is a waiting list to enter, unless you are asked by a team to replace another bowler on a team. this is also a 7 point system with head-to-head individual bowling. Teams win points and individuals also win points, 4 points per night. Only the top half of teams and individuals (by points) get prize money back. This makes it very competitive.
Sort of like bowling Pot Games during the league play.
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