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#76200 - 01/20/09 11:16 AM Re: 16# vs 15# comment yesterday [Re: Dennis Michael]
Tim Gerard Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 2314
A/S/L: m/ Michigan
Dennis,
The PBA League srewed me up this year too. But I want to try it again, I did OK on it in the past..I dunno maybe I'm asking for trouble, but I would like to give it another try.

My scores are erratic too at times,for ex. 240, 182, 157...something stops working for me as well and I fail miserably adjusting. Not every night..but enough to lower the average. I also have a similar problem with only playing outside..I prefer it out there, and am not comfortable inside. Bassackwards..I know..I use to play inside all the time..now it just seems foriegn to me. Thats likely reason my adjustments in a game are not good. I have little confidence in my movements I suppose.
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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#76285 - 01/20/09 08:52 PM Re: 16# vs 15# comment yesterday [Re: Tim Gerard]
cgeorg Offline


Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 3567
A/S/L: Pittsburgh, Pa
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#76319 - 01/20/09 11:35 PM Re: 16# vs 15# comment yesterday [Re: cgeorg]
Smooth Stroker Offline
Legend

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 1905
A/S/L: 45/M/Long Island
I'm not nearly as sciencey as you cgeorg. One thing I always see when someone does some type of science test, is they eliminate the variables and put everyone on the same plane. But usually, all things aren't the same. If a person could handle both 15 and 16 pound bowling balls exactly the same way, and it made no difference to them which one they used, then your experiment is useful. Most people switch weights because of some particular reason. ( i admit, it was way too complex an article to hold my attention )
To me it stands to reason that if you can't keep your wrist firm for the duration of your armswing, then you are using too much weight. If the is no weight resistance and your ball speed fluctuates from delivery to delivery, then you are muscling the ball. Much like throwing a football or baseball. It's tough to let the ball swing the arm if you can't feel the ball at the end of your arm.

Most people can't do the same things with both ball weights, I think the rev rate increases because the bowler has more control of the ball at the lower weight. They can properly effectuate a strong release. Many bowlers have a hard time keeping their wrist firm. I ask some to do it and they just can't. To have a high rev rate, one has to be able to keep their wrist in a strong position for the release. When the weight is too heavy, the bowler has trouble doing this. I think that is what creates the extra revs.

One side note. I remember during some of the older telecasts, they would show you the bowlers ball speed and rev rate. I can remember seeing Pete Weber hit the same ball speed almost on the nose each and every time. I was amazed and the consistency. Now that is the hallmark of a muscle free armswing. I wish they would show some of that info now.
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#76324 - 01/20/09 11:52 PM Re: 16# vs 15# comment yesterday [Re: Smooth Stroker]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9809
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
There seems to be some indication in that report, cg, that a bowler will get more revs as he drops in weight. So, why not all roll 13# balls?

I don't think the relationship is linear.

Didn't the robot test out of USBC Milwaukee say the rev rate was the same, or about equal? If I recall, the robot showed No difference in revs, as his release and speed were always the same.

So, if there is any measurable difference, it must be applied by the bowler.
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#76339 - 01/21/09 07:50 AM Re: 16# vs 15# comment yesterday [Re: Dennis Michael]
cgeorg Offline


Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 3567
A/S/L: Pittsburgh, Pa
Dennis,
Had you read the conclusion, you'd see that I'm of the opinion that a higher rev rate is not a good reason to drop in ball weight. The relationship is not linear. It's equivalent to the percentage difference of the square root of the weights. So going from 16 to 15, you'd have sqrt(16)/sqrt(15)% more revs. 16 to 13 would be sqrt(16)/sqrt(13). Less than 11% increase going from 16 to 13. You can get way more than that by just fixing your release.
I have never seen a USBC test, so I don't know about that. As far as I know, the USBC robot is set for a certain rev rate, not a certain amount of energy applied to rotating the ball. So it wouldn't matter if it was throwing a 5 lb ball or a 25 lb ball.

Smooth, at the beginning of the article, I noted that the calculations would only be valid if the bowler was able to bowl without his muscles getting fatigued to the point that he could not apply the same amount of energy to the release. If a bowler can't bowl/release the ball correctly at a certain weight, and they move down in weight, I would not say that they did it to add revs, and I would also not say that the rev rate gain was due to the weight drop. I would say that the bowler dropped weight so that they could bowl properly, and the rev rate gain was due to the fact that they could now in fact bowl properly.

I also dearly miss that, they would show the rev rate and speed of each shot. It was awesome to see someone playing the 2 lanes differently, yet managing to be consistent within their play on each lane.
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#76347 - 01/21/09 08:24 AM Re: 16# vs 15# comment yesterday [Re: cgeorg]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9809
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Yeah, cg, I read that. I think your conclusion is accurate. I just don't think the calculations are linear with the weight reduction. And, the USBC test robot applies no energy to any ball, A ball rolls down a ramp as it is released. So, the energy is the gravitational pull on the ball. You can position the pin of the ball, the cg, but you cannot impart any rotation. That is generated by the ball and the tilted angle of the ramp.

Actually, it is really educational going to Milwaukee and see this contraption. I will miss it when it gets moved to Texas.
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#76351 - 01/21/09 08:53 AM Re: 16# vs 15# comment yesterday [Re: Dennis Michael]
cgeorg Offline


Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 3567
A/S/L: Pittsburgh, Pa
The ball will always be rolling at the same speed at the bottom of the ramp. How quickly it gets to the bottom can change, but it will always be the same speed when it gets there (well, there may be a small bit of rolling friction, depending on the type of ramp).

If it rolls down a ramp, it will not have any hook potential - it will simply be rolling down the lane. Where does the robot part come in?
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#76355 - 01/21/09 09:25 AM Re: 16# vs 15# comment yesterday [Re: cgeorg]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9809
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Actually, the biggest part of the robot is the calculation it performs while optically reading the ball movement. The unit can be made stationary on the lane. Height can be varied. Tilt can be adjusted by varying each rail the ball rolls on. And, there are many other adjustments it can have. The purpose for most of the measurements I witnesses were to vary the ball with different coverstock, internal weights, etc, Roll each ball the same, with no difference in speed etc, and the machine takes measurements of every roll.

There is another machine that has a robotic arm that released every ball the same way. I missed that one being used.
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#76793 - 01/23/09 02:56 PM Re: 16# vs 15# comment yesterday [Re: Dennis Michael]
Ron A. Offline
Junior

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 22
A/S/L: Olathe, KS
Do you mean this robot? Harry the Bowling Machine
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#76795 - 01/23/09 03:00 PM Re: 16# vs 15# comment yesterday [Re: Ron A.]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9809
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Nice find.
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LM - Black Diamond 15#
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Legends - L/M Xtreme Damage 15# Strong pearl




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