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#7537 - 06/27/06 09:38 AM Women on Men's league
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9809
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
In my opinion, this topic is rediculous, but I have no where else to go.
As a captain in our league, I was brought into a discussion last year. It seems that there was no way to restrict women from bowling in our men's league. Since, the WBA folded, women have been allowed by USBC to bowl on the Pro tour with men.
Our league is a House Classic league, 185 and over average. My contention was that if a woman held a 185 average, what was the difference.
The officers and most other Captains decided to let the membership decide this by a vote. It was decided to put into our by-laws that this league was MEN ONLY, and put Men's Classic in our title.

Well, here is the kicker. A 3-year bowler in our league, has announced that he is going to have a [censored] change operation, during the next year. All thought he was kidding, but this has been proven true. So, the officers want captain's opinion.
Does the fellow start bowling as a man, then be asked to leave after his operation?

Never thought I would have to be Politically Correct on the Bowling Alley. help
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#10100 - 1 second ago Sponsored Links
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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#7538 - 06/27/06 10:13 AM Re: Women on Men's league
SoCal Jeff Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 419
A/S/L: Orange County, CA
OK,
My humble opinion - The vote to keep women out of the league was narrow minded. The days of Men Only have long gone by.

There is a local woman that bowls in the same scratch tournaments I do and she has her PBA card and is a GREAT bowler, if I can beat her is it any less of an accomplishment than if I beat a man? What exactly is a woman going to distroy if you let THEM (tongue in cheek) into a Mens Only league.

OK off my SoapBox. If the vote had not happened then you second situation with the [censored] change operation wouldn't be an issue - I Think. Here's what I don't know. Since your league is average based (185 and over), I am wondering if the person that has the operation retains their average from the previous year...

I think that person will enter the next year, after the operation without a book average. I am sure there is rule for this but I do not know what it is.

Can't we all just get along thumbsup

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#7539 - 06/27/06 11:02 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9809
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I agree. 185 is 185 regardless who bowls it.
The main concern among the members who voted was that allowing a woman (or women) in the league significantly changes the Social aspect of the league, not the competition. The vote was significant, over 90% to limit to men only. A 2/3 vote was required.

Remember, this is also a night out for many and they wish to spend it with other males and BOND. They don't want to be saddled with mixed company.

The issue originally came up when one bowler brought his wife as a sub for the night. She averages over 187, in a house sanctioned league, but this made the other bowlers feel uncomfortable. Not that she would beat them, but because she was there.

There are places in mixed leagues where this is not a problem, but sometimes the men want to be left alone.

In response to your queries; I think the USBC keeps track of bowlers by their ID number, not by [censored]. A sanctioned average follows the ID number. Both women and men can bowl in a sanctioned tournament.
Secondly, the USBC advise to us was that putting "mens" in the league name satisfied the male vs female participation question.
Women's leagues in our house have done the same, women only.
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#7540 - 06/27/06 12:24 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
I think as soon as your bowler starts using the ladies rest room you have your decision.

I'm not so up on the actual points of transgender changing. But it would seem to me that if they need to be a woman that badly that they go through surgery etc....then they give up all the privledges of being male. Privledges like your bowling league. Once this bowler becomes a woman, and you let her bowl on your league, you'll have more problems from other women that may wish to also bowl.

I can't believe that someone that is going through such a change is actually worried about bowling afterwards.

Erin

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#7541 - 06/28/06 01:45 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Lefont Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 187
A/S/L: 35/M/Atlanta
It sounds to me they are very narrow minded in your league. I don't see the downside of being a mixed league. If it comes to women being competitive, there are several in my league that have very high averages and can beat many of the men. I actually would love to bowl with many of them in the same team.
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#7542 - 06/28/06 02:41 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Angel Offline


Registered: 02/02/01
Posts: 401
A/S/L: F/So Cal
I agree with the folks that don't "get" the need for a men's only or women's only league. On the other hand, if someone came straight out and said they didn't want me in a league, the last thing I'd want to do is spend 32 or more weeks and my hard earned money with a bunch of people that had already said they didn't want me around.

Thankfully, there are very few if any leagues that discriminate in that way around here, and I'm not remotely interested in bowling in any of them. For that matter, the best leagues I bowl in are Adult/Youth leagues including a sport shot league that doesn't care how old you are (or aren't) just that you don't whine about how bad you bowl wink
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#7543 - 06/28/06 03:13 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Jock Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 406
A/S/L: 51/M/France, right handed
This seems to be a false problem.

This is a MENS league, right?

So when he becomes a woman, he's no longer allowed to bowl in it.

No problem. smile
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#7544 - 06/28/06 06:06 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Jdhaze Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 235
A/S/L: 35/M/NH
I always find it interesting that in todays PC correct world, people dont understand why there are social groups that would prefer to be men or women only. Men and women sometimes want a place or setting where they dont have to check certain behaviors or topics that are discussed. Lets be real here, a group of all one gender have a certain amount of freedom in how they can behave and what is OK to talk about. In mixed company that changes, or should to a certain degree.

I work nights and the only daytime leagues are either all women or seniors. They are all handicap leagues, so if I joined I would not have any advantage. However they joined the league to be around thier peers, so who am I to disrupt that. Its not like these are the only leagues in town, so its only fair to let them bowl in peace.

I also think its clear, if he wants to be a woman, then he no longer should stay in the league. Cant have his cake and eat it to.

JD

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#7545 - 06/28/06 08:32 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
JD, I understand what you are saying. I pretty much live in a man's world. My trade is mostly men, so I have to work to make them feel comfortable when I'm around. I know they want to talk about things they dont' want to worry about offending the "fairsex". They dont' want to have to guard every word that comes out of their mouth. Telling a few dirty jokes is good fun they feel they cannot have with their wives or other women around. So I think I got it.

However, I've bowled one all ladies league. It was an early morning handicap league. And it was horrid. All the yacking, you had to tell them to get up and bowl. Even while on the approach they are still yacking. Bowling is an interruption to their socializing. I don't have children, never wanted any. Therefore that eliminates a huge common factor I'd have with them. It seems to me that its all they talk about; cutting teeth, outfits, potty training, getting into which school, sports programs, they want cell phones, they are starting to get interested in girls/boys yada yada yada. Oh and then there's the stepping over all the babies and children they bring with them to the alley. Its not my thing. And I think its also part of what keeps men from letting women into their "men only" leagues.

There's really no competative ladies only leagues. So that leaves ladies like me with men's leagues or mixed. And I have been one of two or so women accepted into a men's only league. They didn't make me feel unwanted. And as soon as they knew I wasn't going to blush and whine over every little indelicate thing they grew comfortable. I don't think a lot of women would want to be around a bunch of men bowling. What I think the guys in the Men's Only leagues don't understand is that there may not be anywhere in the area for the serious lady bowler to go and participate in the sport. Around here we don't have any men only leagues anymore. There are some that are heavily men and perhaps a decade or so ago were only men. But if a league votes to be only men, then that's the way it is. And no woman, born or artificially created can join.

Erin

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#7546 - 06/28/06 10:08 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Jdhaze Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 235
A/S/L: 35/M/NH
You make good points as always Erin. Personally I enjoy mixed leagues. However I also understand why some guys would prefer an all mens league. I work at a hospital and am the only male in an office of 30. So I have no desire to join that ladies morning league, I hear enough of the chat you described at work! smile

JD

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