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#7567 - 07/24/06 06:08 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Rollin' Cowboy Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 192
A/S/L: 39/M/Atlanta
Erin,

I'll look into it if nothing more than to give him some motivation to improve his game. Maybe if he feels like he's in a corner, he may take it upon himself to improve. I would like to see him improve but it's up to him. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make that horse drink. Personally, I know he loves the game but if an open option for him to improve would be to look into one of those clubs, he just might. For that, I appreciate you mentioning this. I'm not sure that this exists in the metro Atlanta area but I'll check into it. Maybe if he joined one, it would be his own incentive to get away from the recipe crowd. LOL. But I do know, that he is just not truly ready for the strong competitive eddge that a men's league has. It's all he can do is manage the competition level in a mixed.

Dennis,

I'm the same way at times and sometimes just prefer not to share my own space or my own world. I personally enjoy the mixed league venues but sorely miss the men's league edge. Although my years of being a true competitor in a men's league are behind me due to lack of confidence in my own game. My won game is constantly improving yet again and is a matter of time before I will feel comfortable enough to rejoin a men's league but my choice is that....if I had the opportunity to cross over into a women's league....I wouldn't. But to shine on a reflection that my wife pointed out when I asked her opinion about this topic...is that a Men's league should be a Men's league and if women are on a men's league...it is no longer a men's league but in fact is a mixed league.
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Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#7568 - 07/24/06 07:21 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA"> I would like to see him improve but it's up to him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Here's a problem. IF he doesn't want to work to improve then he, IMO, doesn't deserve to be winning any tournaments. You cannot force someone to have the same drive and desires you may have. But he really can't sit there and find a small enough crowd to compete in at that low level and win.

Erin

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#7569 - 07/24/06 07:32 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Lefont Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 187
A/S/L: 35/M/Atlanta
I have a similar problem with a friend that decided to pick up bowling this summer. He's averaging 101. I gave him my old ball at the beginning of summer. We are about to finish the summer league and he haven't got it drilled yet... He just doesn't want to improve. He paid for shoes all summer. He could have two pairs by now... I don't think there's nothing I can do. We just used his very high handicap to our advantage.
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#7570 - 07/25/06 11:13 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Frostbreath Offline
Junior Coach

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 41
A/S/L: 16/Male/Sweden
Lefont,

I have an almost identical problem with my 13 year old brother. He bowled for a year, but quit since i didn't find it fun enough (maybe beacuse he wanted to compete with me all the time undecided ).

He picked up bowling this summer, and has improved his average (in my eyes) from slightly below 100 to somewhere in the 120 range. So i decided to donate him my old Ebonite Maxim. But he's also unwilling to take on the advices i give him. After a hard run below the hundred, i try to learn him the 3,5,7 spare technique, but then he just sneezes at me and tells me to shut up.

Sure, he's only a kid, but i'd very much like him to improve enough so that we might buy a license to him one day.

On another note, you use your handicap in the leagues? We don't do that over here, we only use it in tournaments and such.

Emil
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#7571 - 07/25/06 11:32 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Tyveil Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 10/20/03
Posts: 463
A/S/L: Kansas
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by Frostbreath:
On another note, you use your handicap in the leagues? We don't do that over here, we only use it in tournaments and such.

Emil
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Eh? He's just saying that the low average bowler helps because it adds handicap in their league. Most leagues are handicap (unless they're scratch of course). Are you saying you bowl in a scratch league with a 120 average bowler? Ri--ight. nut laugh
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#7572 - 07/25/06 04:24 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Frostbreath Offline
Junior Coach

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 41
A/S/L: 16/Male/Sweden
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by Tyveil:
Eh? He's just saying that the low average bowler helps because it adds handicap in their league. Most leagues are handicap (unless they're scratch of course). Are you saying you bowl in a scratch league with a 120 average bowler? Ri--ight. nut laugh </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">It's like this...

We have three different teams in our club. The A-team, the B-team, and the youth team. And then we have people who's just trying out, that has no license, and doesn't play in a league. My brother belongs to the category mentioned last. I play in the A-team, which consists of players with an average of 197 - 172. The B-team has an average of 175 - 150 and to play in the youth team you'd probably need an average of 125 or higher.

Seems like it really are other places in the world besides my own wink

Emil
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Club: BK Frisk (anno 1940)
Avg: 186
My super awesome rolling luggage carries:
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#7573 - 07/25/06 06:01 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Rollin' Cowboy Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 192
A/S/L: 39/M/Atlanta
Erin,

I know the wisdom you speak here. Trust me, he is not tourney material. Yet. All I can do is try to motivate him but if he's not willing...it's a dead run. I dunno, maybe he'd be better off trading recipes for lawn mowing techniques....lol.
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It takes balls to play this game.

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#7574 - 07/27/06 09:01 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9814
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Only one thing bothers me when I bowl in a Mixed League. And, that is the Hi-game, Hi-series awards. I think, if this is a mixed league, and all bowlers are equal, then WHY do they keep separate records for Men's Hi-game versus Women's Hi-game. All Hi-games should be listed in highest order, regardless of which [censored] bowled them.

In doing this, women are competing with women, and men with men. This defeats the purpose of a combined league.

On one hand, we are bowling together, then on the other, the records are separated. WHY?

I guess we are separate but equal.
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#7575 - 07/27/06 12:29 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Chris Cenotti Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 154
A/S/L: 25/M/Northern California
I gotta disagree, Dennis. The way I see it, the hi-game/series awards are not the main goal of a league. The focus is on team vs team competition. In that way you have mixed women and men teams competing, no separation there.

With the understanding that awards are a bonus and a by-product of the team competition I'll go back to my previous argument. That is, for scratch awards I agree with the distinction. I fully understand and recognize that there are many women bowlers who can wipes the floor with me and most of the men in the leagues I bowl in. But they are the exception, rather than the rule. In general, looking at my leagues, there is a around 20-30 pin difference between men and women. This is for high games, series and avgs. If the idea is for fun and fair competition (and keeping people interested and coming back) then I think the distinction is necessary and welcome. In that regard all bowlers are not the same.

Now for hdcp awards, I could see the argument for having a single set, since the hdcp should theoretically level the playing field. But again, going back to the idea being fun and keeing people coming back and joining, I know many women I bowl with who would be intimidated or just turned off by the idea of competing 1-1 with men, regardless of hdcp or not.

Like it or not, there are differences between men and women. I could go into a hundred more reasons in this thread for the separation. What it boils down to for me is that I know women and men to be equals, *but equal does not mean the same*. Using a bowling analogy: Picture 2 200 avg bowlers: one is a cranker playing deep inside stringing strikes, not caring about spares, and swinging the whole lane, while the other is a stroker who never misses a spare, has trouble with carry so can't string a lot of strikes, playing the twig. The bowlers are equal, but you'd never say they're the same and you couldn't realistically require either to compete using the same style/philosophy as the other.

Chris

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#7576 - 07/28/06 12:52 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9814
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I don't see it this way, and it's because the women in my mixed league have just as high, if not higher averages than the men.
6 of the top 10 are women. Women's high game scratch was higher then any man, same with series. Handicap was a mixed bag. In this equal competition, there really isn't need to separate men from women.

We also have men and women evenly spread throughout the average list. I'm sure the lower averaged women don't think the highest woman is any less able than any man.

I think the difference comes about because usually, there aren't as many high average women bowlers. In our league, there are.
In fact there are at least 7-8 who average over 180. These women are good.

The one thing I find is that my average is lower in a mixed league. It is because it is more social than the men's league. I probably don't take it as seriously. It is strictly for enjoyment, not the competition. I think it is that way with most of the bowlers.

Our house has 2 very competitive men's leagues, and a very competitive women's league. The top men and women know each other pretty well. The Friday nite Mixed, is where we all bring our spouces and have fun. Quite a lot of us go out for dinner afterwards.

I guess in other leagues where the men are on top and the women lower, it might make sense. It doesn't in ours.
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