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#7557 - 07/21/06 12:11 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Bikedad Offline
High Roller

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 347
A/S/L: 57/male/New Zealand. Right han...
This has turned into a very interesting thread! Keep it up folks!!
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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#7558 - 07/21/06 05:27 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Frostbreath Offline
Junior Coach

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 41
A/S/L: 16/Male/Sweden
I think it's great that women do as great as us gents at bowling. However, i have noticed that those women who do play in mens league are waaaayyy more competetive than most guys i know who also bowl. You're almost afraid of their reaction when you roll a turkey.

And they're really good at psyche outs...
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#7559 - 07/21/06 02:49 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Brian Longo Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by Frostbreath:
I think it's great that women do as great as us gents at bowling. However, i have noticed that those women who do play in mens league are waaaayyy more competetive than most guys i know who also bowl. You're almost afraid of their reaction when you roll a turkey.

And they're really good at psyche outs...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Perhaps the "over-competitiveness" stems from the fact that they're with the men and they feel like they have to "be one of the guys" to fit in. I don't know. Just a thought.

But my whole outlook on men and women bowling together is, well, "progressive" because of the fact that I'm married to a very good woman bowler and also because I bowled in youth leagues for a long, long time. I've bowled against females that could outhook some guys and I bowled with females that had a better overall game than most guys, too. In essence, I don't see that gender barrier that some people do.

Bowling is one of the few "physical sports" where the playing field is fairly level in terms of men and women competing against each other.
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#7560 - 07/22/06 11:17 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Rollin' Cowboy Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 192
A/S/L: 39/M/Atlanta
Don't get me wrong. I have absolutely no objections about women on a men's league. I like the added diversity and the added competition but I am still a man of principle. Believe me, I've seen enough women who certainly hold their own with men in competition and I have no qualms with this. My point takes me back to the debate of the Master's Golf tourney a couple of years ago when a woman tried to sue Augusta National because it is an exclusively men's tournament as is the Augusta National Club for the most part. I know I'm discussing another sport and as of late, there have been some women golfers make an attempt at qualifying for a men's tourney. In either case the point is the same: women can join a men's function but a man can't join a women's function. Even across America you see gyms that are co-ed and then a few blocks down the road you see those that are exclusively for women. Keep in mind that I do have an open mind about everything from bowling to anything else on the books but I still advocate what is good for the goose is just as good for the gander. You want things fair? Then it needs to be fair for all!
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#7561 - 07/22/06 12:11 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
I think in bowling the reason men cannot participate in women only events is because of the huge difference in the 'average' participant. The national average for women is something around 145. While for the men is 175. Those are ball park figures. Women events are entirely different then mens. The competition is not there, the participants are not there for the same reason men go to men's events. And frankley the women are severely intimidated to have any non same s ex competition. In many associations they didn't even talk to their male counterparts in the service of directors and officers. The reason it took so long to merge into USBC....women.

Erin

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#7562 - 07/22/06 03:27 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Brian Longo Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
In the instance of men entering women's events, A doesn't not equal B. I do see your point, Rollin' Cowboy, and your thought that, "what's good for the goose should be good for the gander", but Erin brings up the crux of the argument when she talks about the "intimidation factor". That's why there's still women's leagues around and men's leagues still see a decline.

A lot of women still do not want to bowl with the men. I can't blame them and frankly, there are just some women I would not want to bowl with (see my post about women making a 2 1/2 hour event into a marathon). I don't mind them having their own tournaments or their own association or whatever. If it keeps them bowling, then that's all the better. But if you set the bar too high, or force those women to bowl with men, the majority would leave, plain and simple, and then we'd really see a sharp decline in membership.

And the way I look at it, if a man really wants to bowl in a women's tournament (for principle or not), then it's akin to someone sandbagging for a lower average. Not to sound chauvinistic here, but do you think that the average women bowler stands a good chance to beat an average male bowler in a tournament? No. So to keep things seperate for the women, for the sake of membership and enjoyment, is fine by me. So, too, is the idea of letting women compete with men if they so choose, because not allowing women who can compete against men would be equally as detrimental as making it possible for men to "infiltrate" a women's league or tournament.
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#7563 - 07/22/06 05:48 PM Re: Women on Men's league
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
We're already getting complaints about the USBC fee structure. The women thing of course its because they've been taken over by the men. They typically paid less for their WIBC cards then the men paid for their ABC cards.

But Rollin, if you want to participate in women's events, LOL, then go for it. I'm tellin ya, its going to be more nerve bashing then skill shooting. But you will soon know everything about their kids, grandkids,daycares, what colleges the kids and grandkids get accepted into, what job they just landed. The best place to get pantyhose and hair dye cheap. What the ongoing specials are at the local groceries. And possibly gain some really good recipes.

Erin

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#7564 - 07/23/06 09:03 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Rollin' Cowboy Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 192
A/S/L: 39/M/Atlanta
LOL Erin,

This is not what I meant at all and I think all of you know that. Brian, I'm with you 100% on what you say here. My thoughts are actually geared toward the men (with no offense intended)who may find themselves not quite ready for the typical men's leagues where there are huge prize funds, high scores, etc. One person I can think of is actually a teammate of mine on our Sunday night fall mixed league. On his best day he may average 115 and shows no chance of improvement because he loves the game but lacks the discipline or drive to really take his game any further and it's highly doubtful that he'll ever bring any intimidation to the floor. My point is that because of GENDER, he is not allowed to cross over. I think you've all over analyzed what I've been trying to say. As for women on a men's league, go for it, there money is just as green as mine and I've found it a little more fun with them there for many reasons which include a slightly more relaxed environment when they are bowling against you.

When the merger between WIBC, ABC, YABA, etc. occurred, the women's cards were still cheaper than the men's but for 2 dollars more they could gain the advantage of having a men's sanction card and it still came out cheaper than the men's but it allowed women to cross over. As USBC continues it's evolution, now a woman's cards are as much as the men's. They are still allowed to cross over so that there are no GENDER barriers. But GENDER barriers still exist when the roles are reversed.

I think I'm going to take up darts.
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#7565 - 07/23/06 10:37 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Have your friend look into the local 500 club. A 500 club holds tournaments for those that have never shot beyond 599. They are handicapped. And I believe in San Jose they just started to allow men to bowl with the ladies if they qualify by having not shot above 599. There's also a 600 club for the next step up. He'd have to check out the local rules and clubs.

Erin

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#7566 - 07/24/06 11:05 AM Re: Women on Men's league
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9809
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Never thought this topic would generate so much discussion.

I guess I am able to have choices. I can bowl in a competitive Men's league, or a competitive Mixed league. I have never looked into the opportunity to bowl in a Women's league.

But, bowling in both Men's and Mixed, I have developed a preferrence to Men's. it's not the level of competition, but the social aspect. Different subjects are talked about. Friendships are different. I can say something to another man that I wouldn't say to a woman, and it doesn't have to be suggestive.

There is just a difference in the expectation and challenge of Male competitors. I enjoy the Mixed league but for different reasons. Here, it is primarily social, but in a couples way.

The men sit around after the night and talk about the missed spare, the string of strikes, the team position, and sometimes equipment. Sometimes, the conversation can be accusational, instructional, but usually focused on BOWLING. In mixed leagues, the general conversation is more like I would have at a backyard barbecue with neighbors.

Sometimes, I would rather talk bowling with the same [censored] at the same level of ability, and not talk about kids and the local school function.
And, that is MY choice. I am glad I have options.

Sometimes, I prefer My Space, and not share it.
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