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#75208 - 01/11/09 07:44 PM Re: Patrick Allen - Storm & Hammer? [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
leftykev Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 329
A/S/L: Spokane, WA
No disrespect to WRW, but even pro's make week shots and pay the price. too many people, including the press have elevated Walter to Bowling GOD stautus.

Yes, he is a good bowling, and YES he is a great bowling, BUT BUT BUT, HE is human and not in his 20's, and paid the price for ALL that. Regardless of the era, he is not the greatest bowler of all time. Just a good/great bowling, who happended to win a lot over PBA tournaments over 30 years. 30 Years? Just because he won at least 1 PBA tournament over the last 16 years, does not make him a greatest of all time. His lose record was is right up there with his win records....So, sorry for ranting, but lets stop placing an average PBA bowling at BOWLING GOD status.


Edited by leftykev (01/11/09 07:47 PM)

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#75212 - 01/11/09 08:05 PM Re: Patrick Allen - Storm & Hammer? [Re: leftykev]
Brian Longo Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
Not to stray too far off topic, but even WRW admits it is Earl Anthony, not him, that is the greatest of all time. Walter Ray is, by far, the best bowler of the "resin era", if you will, by sheer numbers alone. He may have had a longer career, but still he has been competitive on the regular tour for many years, something that can't be said for a lot of "former greats." The man wins a lot because he is in the top 4 or 5 a lot, and that speaks volumes about his ability to not only win "the marathon", but "the sprint" as well.

And to say he is average is not only blasphemous, but seriously disrespectful, for he is far from "average". I'm sure you could go right out there and beat him, right?
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#75213 - 01/11/09 08:06 PM Re: Patrick Allen - Storm & Hammer? [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
NewEnglandBowler Offline
High Roller

Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 364
A/S/L: 24/m/MA, USA
That 8-10 was an absolutely terrible break. unfortunately that was the only game that i saw, but WRW threw an excellent shot for the title. I have never seen a reaction like that from WRW, either. i don't think anyone in the house could believe that he had left the 8-10, and apparently PA was about 10 lanes away from the TV pair in disbelief.

I would put that shot right up there with Pedersen's stone 8 against Ernie Schlegel and Del Ballard Jr's gutterball against pete Weber.
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#75216 - 01/11/09 08:33 PM Re: Patrick Allen - Storm & Hammer? [Re: Brian Longo]
leftykev Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 329
A/S/L: Spokane, WA
I didn't say I could go out and beat him. I'm not a PBA bowling and I know my place as just a bowler, but just because the press says he is the greatest bowler of all time, is just HYPE, and disrespective of the true bowling WRW really is...He didn't get a bad break today, he threw a week shot and lost because of that week shot. And, that just shows he is human.

My point is that it's wrong to dis-bleave he left that shot.


Edited by leftykev (01/11/09 08:34 PM)

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#75218 - 01/11/09 09:01 PM Re: Patrick Allen - Storm & Hammer? [Re: leftykev]
Brian Longo Offline
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Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
The shot was somewhat weak, yes, but it had been carrying, so it was reasonable for him to expect to carry. I think part of the frustration was knowing he finally threw a decent shot on 23 to get him into a position to win and then left that 8-10, and that demoralized him. Even PA couldn't believe that bad luck. It was unlucky, really. It wasn't the worst shot he threw today, either, but it left the least desired result at the most inopportune time.

I don't know if anyone is in utter disbelief he left that 8-10, and anyone who understands the sport knows his style is susceptible to leaving flat leaves, but as I said, it was carrying up until that shot and, at worst, a flat 8 or flat 10 wouldn't be out of the question, but not an 8-10.
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#75220 - 01/11/09 09:28 PM Re: Patrick Allen - Storm & Hammer? [Re: Brian Longo]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
My whole reaction was due to leaving both pins, not one or the other but both on the same shot. It didn't matter if it was WRW, Chris Barnes, Rhino Page(would have been the 7-9) or Tommy Jones I would have had the same reaction with the game being that close.

No one at that point on this thread said anything about WRW being the best ever I was just reacting to the leave. I don't believe in saying someone is the greatest of all time in any thing. You can't compare people from different eras in any sport. There are too many differences between eras.
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#75227 - 01/11/09 10:19 PM Re: Patrick Allen - Storm & Hammer? [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
Jay R. Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 1300
A/S/L: 21/M/Tacoma, WA
He deserved flat 10. Bad break on that 8 though, that was far from expected. As for balls that were used, the only ones I can't figure out what Wes and Chris each used for the Cheetah. I know what Chris used was urethane though because that's what they said during the first match. Bill was using the new Ebonite Magic on the Cheetah.

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#75237 - 01/11/09 11:04 PM Re: Patrick Allen - Storm & Hammer? [Re: NewEnglandBowler]
BIGHMW Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 09/09/08
Posts: 414
A/S/L: 48/M/Port Townsend, WA
Originally Posted By: K.M. Ryan
That 8-10 was an absolutely terrible break. unfortunately that was the only game that i saw, but WRW threw an excellent shot for the title. I have never seen a reaction like that from WRW, either. i don't think anyone in the house could believe that he had left the 8-10, and apparently PA was about 10 lanes away from the TV pair in disbelief.

I would put that shot right up there with Pedersen's stone 8 against Ernie Schlegel and Del Ballard Jr's gutterball against pete weber.


I was thinking the exact same sediment as you were, Walter Ray went with the "ol' high hard one" on that shot, and got a horrible break at (yes) the most inopportuned time.

Comparing that with Randy Pedersen's stone 8 against Ernie Schlegel (1995 TPC) and Del Ballard's infamous gutterball against PDW (1991 Fair Lanes Open) is indeed correct, and I have seen all 3 as they happened. I wonder if our good friend the Wolfman himself will be uploading this bad break onto YouTube so we can all discuss more on it.

Now note that like myself, that WRW does not have a very high rev rate, and he'll be the first to admit it, but his accuarcy has been more than enough to allow him to still win on Tour year-after-year against even the Young Guns like Tommy Jones, Wes Malott, and Rhino Page have been tearing it up the most recent years. That 8-10 could have been a by-product of his equipment (MoRich) maybe losing its energy ("hooking out" as the ball hit the 1-3) or maybe he was using 15-pound gear, and he paid the price as the ball looked like it deflected too much.

I myself throw the ball like Walter Ray does, or even Ernie Schlegel does, the "ol' high hard one" (I even admitted it on my 20 Questions on my official website, see http://www.bighmw.com/20questions.html Question 8 for details), and I also throw more of a spinner as opposed to end-over-end roll like WRW, and I throw nothing but 16-pound equipment, believing in Bo Burton's old philosophy that 15-pound equipment deflects too much, and I believe that the lighter equipment he was using cost him the title, after doing his post-tournament research he will indeed think twice before drilling up 15-pound gear again.
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#75243 - 01/11/09 11:47 PM Re: Patrick Allen - Storm & Hammer? [Re: BIGHMW]
NewEnglandBowler Offline
High Roller

Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 364
A/S/L: 24/m/MA, USA
maybe i was unclear in my original post. i wasn't really in disbelief, it was more of a huge surprise that he left BOTH the 8 and the 10 on that shot. from how i saw it, that shot should have only left the 10, it was a little high, and i didn't expect the 8. a ten pin and we would have most certainly been looking at a roll off, but something missed the 8.

i throw close to the same as WRW, not a huge follow-through and a bit more angle than end over end, so i understand how it is to leave solid 8 pins, or have a 6 lay in the channel and not kick the 10. but i haven't left an 8-10 in at least a couple years, and with a similar style to WRW, i was almost in shock that he left both pins, not to mention the tension of the situation (strike for a win, 9/ for a tie, <9 for a loss).

Maybe BigHMW is correct in saying that the ball deflected too much, i only use 16 so i usually don't worry about leaving 8 pins unless the ball comes in flat.
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#75261 - 01/12/09 01:57 AM Re: Patrick Allen - Storm & Hammer? [Re: NewEnglandBowler]
untutored Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 269
A/S/L: 35/m/arizona
IMO Patrick Allen had some pretty cool equipment. I wonder whether he did anything fancy with the Razyr or just a regular drilling.


It was too bad for WRW--I think the comparison with Del Ballard is right on. Just as Ballard would obviously prefer not to bounce his shot off the 1, I know Walter Ray would rather use stronger equipment on the Cheetah, but since he committed to throwing the same shot on both sides, he was limited by the amount of movement he could get with his strongest ball on the Shark pattern.

I hope next time WRW considers changing his strategy for the stepladder finals. I don't know if there's enough of an opportunity there for him to build a rhythm like he must do during the week.
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