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#73947 - 12/29/08 01:06 AM Re: What is your Positive Axis Point (PAP)? [Re: CoachJim]
Jay R. Offline
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Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 1202
A/S/L: 21/M/Tacoma, WA
I definitely agree, there are many people that just don't like or don't bowl well with certain companies. I'm not too sure if trying an all-around good ball is a great idea for seeing if you match up though, since just about anyone should like those.

There's not a long list of balls I've liked really, since this is my fourth year bowling competetively and in the tournament scene. Here is what I know I like though

Rival - 50 x 4 1/4" x 60 dual angle, pin below fingers and just right of my centerline, cg about 1/2" of grip center.

Avalanche Solid - 70 x 2 1/2" x 50, pin to the right of ring, cg 2" away from grip center, x-hole on a line from grip center through cg on VAL.

Whirl Wind - pin next to ring ~3 1/2" from PAP, cg within 1/2" from grip center

Twisted Fury(I guess before it "died") - pin under middle finger 5 1/2" from PAP, MB around 3" right and 1" down of thumb seemingly on my VAL, x-hole on PAP.

If I'm not mistaken, what seems common of balls I like is that they're at least somewhat rolly.

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#73961 - 12/29/08 09:38 AM Re: What is your Positive Axis Point (PAP)? [Re: Jay R.]
CoachJim Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 3489
A/S/L: Reston, Virginia USA
Quote:
I definitely agree, there are many people that just don't like or don't bowl well with certain companies. I'm not too sure if trying an all-around good ball is a great idea for seeing if you match up though, since just about anyone should like those.


You would think that a good all around ball would be good for everyone, but that is how you can tell if a manufacturer is not good for you because this ball still will not carry for you if you don't match up, like Patrick Allen and Track, no matter what he did he couldn't match up.

The Rival has a 2.49 rg which is low,and a .040 differential which is medium.

The whirlwind has a 2.47 rg which is low and a .045 diff which is medium.

The twisted has a 2.548 rg which is medium and a .036 diff which is on the low side of medium.

The Avalanche solid has a 2.548 rg and a .024 diff which is low.

The counterstrike has a 2.586 rg which is on the high side of medium, and a .040 differential.

The angular one has a 2.46 rg which is low, and a .056 diff which is high.

From this you can see what seems to work for you, medium to low rg and medium diff, I didn't see a low rg high diff solid for heavy oil, do you have one or have you tried one?

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#74063 - 12/30/08 04:02 AM Re: What is your Positive Axis Point (PAP)? [Re: CoachJim]
Jay R. Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 1202
A/S/L: 21/M/Tacoma, WA
I forgot, I had a Black Widow too. I don't remember exactly how it was drilled but from what I understand it was close to leverage with the pin to the right of and slightly lower than even with the ring finger, MB in a strong position, and an x-hole that was likely flare increasing. That ball is probably the biggest hooking one I've ever thrown especially on the backend. It preferred long oil, it seemed. It was better in my hands than the Angular One in my opinion, I just didn't get to use it that much due to the conditions it was best on as opposed to what I typically saw. That has an RG of 2.49 and diff of 2.57.

I think there is some truth to me matching up better to low-medium RG and diffs. But that Black Widow was a good ball also, maybe with a tamer drilling it would have been even better. Maybe it's okay for solids to have a high diff but not pearls? I think if I also watch my angle to the VAL when laying out a ball, that can help keep me out of trouble as well.

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#74624 - 01/05/09 10:31 PM Re: What is your Positive Axis Point (PAP)? [Re: ijohn83]
ShadowBowling Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 58
A/S/L: 29/M/WV
I had mine measured today, and it was 6 and 1/4 0. Had me throw it down the oil, then stuck it on a spinner.

Am I some kind of freak? I was used to hearing 4-5 inches, but something just seems wrong. Maybe the amount of axis tilt is throwing it off? I wanted to get my next ball drilled in a stacked layout, and want to be sure it's perfect.


Edited by ShadowBowling (01/05/09 10:33 PM)

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#74639 - 01/06/09 03:50 AM Re: What is your Positive Axis Point (PAP)? [Re: ShadowBowling]
Arcfire Offline
Junior Coach

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 46
A/S/L: 27/M/Singapore
Might be slightly off topic here, but what is the relation between pin placement and pap?

What do the different layouts mean?

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#74641 - 01/06/09 07:32 AM Re: What is your Positive Axis Point (PAP)? [Re: Arcfire]
CoachJim Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 3489
A/S/L: Reston, Virginia USA
Quote:
Might be slightly off topic here, but what is the relation between pin placement and pap?

What do the different layouts mean?


It is pretty simple, the distance the pin is from the pap in the layout dictates how much the ball will flare. The amount a ball can flare is dictated by the ball's differential, so the higher the differential (.060 max USBC rating) the more flare the ball will have when drilled at the leverage point. The leverage point or max flare point for the ball is at 3 3/8" from the pap, placing the pin closer to the pap or farther from the pap up to 6 3/4", reduces the flare.

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#74644 - 01/06/09 07:36 AM Re: What is your Positive Axis Point (PAP)? [Re: ShadowBowling]
CoachJim Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 3489
A/S/L: Reston, Virginia USA
Quote:
I had mine measured today, and it was 6 and 1/4 0. Had me throw it down the oil, then stuck it on a spinner.


That is an extremely high Track. I would recommend waiting on the ball for now and take some lessons to try to lower your Track into the 4 1/2 to 5 1/2" range. Fixing your release after the ball will result in a less than leverage drilling and the ball will back off on the back end unless you have a high rev rate.

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#74648 - 01/06/09 08:19 AM Re: What is your Positive Axis Point (PAP)? [Re: ShadowBowling]
Lefty Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 2349
A/S/L: 37 / M / Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: ShadowBowling
I had mine measured today, and it was 6 and 1/4 0. Had me throw it down the oil, then stuck it on a spinner.

Am I some kind of freak?


Aren't you tracking over the finger and thumb holes?

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#74650 - 01/06/09 08:49 AM Re: What is your Positive Axis Point (PAP)? [Re: Arcfire]
cgeorg Offline
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Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 3385
A/S/L: Pittsburgh, Pa
The distance from the pin to the PAP determines how much of the ball's flare potential will actually be used, as well as how quickly the ball will transition to a rolled-out phase. At 3 3/8", you'll see the most flare potential. As you get higher, you'll see less flare potential, and a later/longer transition (more energy retention). As you get lower, you'll see less flare potential, and an earlier/quicker transition (less energy retention). Note that the difference in energy retention will be a very small part of the overall reaction, and not very noticeable to an untrained eye.

6 1/4 over, if you're not rolling over the finger holes, probably means you're actually throwing a bit of a spinner, with over 90* of axis rotation (your fingers are towards the front of the ball when you release). Not a desirable situation. Can you post a video of your release? If that sounds wrong, it may be a mis-measurement.
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#74657 - 01/06/09 09:54 AM Re: What is your Positive Axis Point (PAP)? [Re: cgeorg]
sk8shorty01 Offline
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A/S/L: 25/M/Cocoa Beach, FL
I agree with the two above. With the PAP being 6 1/4 you are either rolling over the finger holes, or have a very high degree of axis rotation (something close to 90). I also agree that a video of your release would really help to determine if that is an accurate number or not.
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