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#73549 - 12/22/08 02:27 PM Handicapping
bluesman_vt_2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 147
A/S/L: 40/M/VT
Just received an email from our Association Manager regarding the preparation for our local Association Tournament. Last year, we used 100% of 210, in a house that only has 8-10 200+ average bowlers. This year, the number of 200+ is roughly the same, but the proposal is that we should go to 100% of 220.

My concern is that this will drive away scratch bowlers because of what they consider insurmountable odds.

Can anyone tell me their experiences with this? I remember when every tournament was 100% of 200...
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#73550 - 12/22/08 02:36 PM Re: Handicapping [Re: bluesman_vt_2002]
Dennis Michael Offline
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Registered: 12/11/05
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A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Usually, handicap is based on the highest average bowler. 100% of the difference levels the playing field. Everyone has the same chance.

But, you are right. The higher average bowlers enjoy the advantage of a lower base or a lower %. This might discourage them. But, attract many more lower bowlers.

My Coach has finished top scratch score in each of the last 3 Association tournaments, but has never finished in the top 10 when handicap has been added.
He still comes back.
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#73558 - 12/22/08 05:09 PM Re: Handicapping [Re: Dennis Michael]
jsigone Offline
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Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 289
A/S/L: 28/m/San Diego, CA
100% of 220 is HARD for a scratch bowler to beat.....most handicap tournys here are 90% of 210-220. That few pins give us some type of hope.
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#73563 - 12/22/08 08:10 PM Re: Handicapping [Re: jsigone]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Quote:
My concern is that this will drive away scratch bowlers because of what they consider insurmountable odds.


I wouldnt' have bowled the previous year either. There's something wrong when everyone has to be made equal, without putting in equal amount of effort. Those that work harder at this sport, get coaching, knowledge, practice,information etc......have earned what little advantage 75%-90% handicap might give them. Even so, we still have WAaAAaaayyyyyy too many sandbaggers for me to bowl any association tournaments that are not divided up into divisions.

Maybe your association could consider a scratch city tournament that's in divisions and/or [censored]. Then the ladies won't have to compete with the men, the 140 average bowler wouldn't have to compete against a 180 or 200 average bowler.

Erin

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#73572 - 12/22/08 10:05 PM Re: Handicapping [Re: Atochabsh]
bluesman_vt_2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 147
A/S/L: 40/M/VT
"There's something wrong when everyone has to be made equal, without putting in equal amount of effort."

This I agree with completely. It's frustrating when you invest time and money into studying the game, getting coaching and buying equipment to compete. The problem with our association is that it's small and multiple divisions just isn't possible.

The concept was brought up by a team that is in the cellar, only won 3 matches all year and just got beat a couple weeks ago by a team that tied the house record. I tried to explain that the reason that they lost wasn't due to the handicap, but rather that two of the guys had 700 (one of them 781). I also explained that their loss only proved my point. One of the women on the team, who averages 165-170, shot 660 on the night with a 266 her first game. Now, she earned it. She's worked on her game and quite frankly just had one of those nights because normally she's low to mid 500's, but when you have a 170 average bowler shooting 660, even if your scratch bowlers are -10, you aren't going to win...
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#73580 - 12/23/08 01:45 AM Re: Handicapping [Re: bluesman_vt_2002]
bryhardt Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 52
A/S/L: 35/M/St. Louis
This article was originally in the Bowlers Journal about this subject.

http://www.mnbowling.com/openframenotevrybodycanbeawinner.shtml
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#73584 - 12/23/08 06:03 AM Re: Handicapping [Re: bryhardt]
bluesman_vt_2002 Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 147
A/S/L: 40/M/VT
Thanks Bryhardt, I went looking for that article and couldn't the edition that it was originally printed in.

One clarification too. Earlier I stated that the team in the cellar didn't lose because of handicap and that reads wrong, the handicap was there with the woman that shot 266 and when you factor in her handicap she was well over 300. And that's not something that I would complain about. She threw a great game and a great set.

But they didn't lose the game or all the matches that they have lost this year because they don't have enough handicap, because trust me, when you bowl these cats and your giving up almost 250 pins per game, they have plenty. They lost because they are simply out bowled by other teams.

Unfortunately as I mentioned, we're a small association so a Senior League just wouldn't get the turnout to start up. But I also don't think that starting the mentality of bumping the handicap solves that either. More handicap doesn't make you a better bowler.
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#73606 - 12/23/08 01:51 PM Re: Handicapping [Re: bluesman_vt_2002]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Many of our local tournaments see the same group of people cashing every time. They come in with mediocre averages and always shoot better in tournaments. Its difficult to rerate someone but we do it. It takes gathering years of information. Even so, some still fly under the radar. Mostly now we are seeing people switching hands so they have a lower average. Then they go to a tournament where the tournament manager wouldn't necessrily know what hand they normally bowl with and then they bowl lights out. Or the rerated ones are now bunching up with lower average bowlers for team events, like 120 average bowlers. Then in tournaments those 120 average bowlers shoot 160s. That's flying under the radar.

Give these people 100% handicap too? You got to be crazy. I think if we went back to something like 66 1/3% like it used to be that would not give the sandbaggers that much advantage.

Erin


Edited by Atochabsh (12/23/08 01:52 PM)

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#73607 - 12/23/08 02:21 PM Re: Handicapping [Re: Atochabsh]
General Pounder Offline
3x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 3398
A/S/L: 40/M/Midlothian, IL
Problem is that going to 66 1/3% handicap kills the bowlers who are there for fun and not sandbaggers.
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#73608 - 12/23/08 02:22 PM Re: Handicapping [Re: Atochabsh]
Chubbs Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 494
A/S/L: 30/M/Niceville, FL
Originally Posted By: Atochabsh
Mostly now we are seeing people switching hands so they have a lower average. Then they go to a tournament where the tournament manager wouldn't necessrily know what hand they normally bowl with and then they bowl lights out.


Anybody who does this deserves to have their kneecaps busted, and then get Monsoned. mad I can't overstate how much this kind of stuff ticks me off.

Great article, BTW. Thanks for posting that, it gave me some hope!

GP-

I understand what you're saying, but if those "for fun" bowlers are really there just for fun then it shouldn't matter what the system is. I'm sure there are alot of bowlers who roll in league and tourneys for the social aspect and purely for enjoyment, but there are also alot who say that as a front for their 'bagging. If you want to be there for something more than a good time and be competitive, then GET BETTER. Don't just play with the house odds until they're in your favor.


Edited by Chubbs (12/23/08 02:28 PM)
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