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#70713 - 11/16/08 09:42 AM Re: League rule help [Re: Jekyl6573]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: Jekyl6573
K.M. Ryan you got it right. There is no rule that specifically outlines what it is that I am asking about. It seems that rule 118 is assumed by many, to be the answer to my question.

I never said I switched hands during league play. That's a big no no. I said whatever hand I started with is the hand I stayed with the entire night. There must be some underlining prejudice regarding this subject. I think something is automatically assumed of those who can bowl with either hand. In tournaments you have to take the highest booked average anyways. I do not bowl tournaments and have no intentions of starting.



118b. How Established

Each league shall adopt a rule to determine the number of games required to establish an average in that league. The following applies when establishing an average:

1. A right-handed bowler must always bowl right-handed. Similarly, a left-handed bowler must always bowl left-handed. Penalty: Forfeiture of game.

2. No combination of scores bowled both right- and left-handed can be used to compute an average, except as stipulated in Rule 4c.

3. The league’s board of directors may, by majority vote, adjust a player’s average before the player bowls in the league or during the season due to injury or disability. Separate averages must be maintained.

Youth leagues:

4. A bowler using a two-handed delivery will establish an average with two hands. When the bowler changes to a one-handed delivery, they must establish a new average using that hand.

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 118b

118b/1 If a bowler uses his/her opposite hand to make a delivery during a game, what happens?

If an individual does not have permission from the league’s board of directors, a league officer or the league board would then have the following options within the timelines as stated in Rule 119.

· Declare the individual’s game forfeited: The bowler would receive zero for the game. (Note: Scores bowled by the other team members not in violation stand as bowled.)

· Declare the team’s game forfeited: The team would receive zero for the game. (Note: The individual in violation would receive zero. However, scores bowled by the other team members counts toward their individual averages and league awards unless the league rules state otherwise.)


It isn't assumed that rule 118 is the answer, it is without a doubt the answer except to those who think it doesn't apply to them. There is a rule covering the situation and what Erin said about the integrity of the game, or lack there of is also from people trying to find the gray areas in the rules and then trying to exploit them.
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#70716 - 11/16/08 10:46 AM Re: League rule help [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
Stormin Norman Fan Offline
Junior Master

Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 30
A/S/L: 42 / M / Independence, Mo
WOW! All that was asked is how the rule was stated, to clarify what the secretary was saying. (due to the non-bowling issue between the two) In no way was this a "pile on me because I wasn't doing something right" thread. Take a deep breath and relax a little.

I understand what everyone is saying and trying to uphold the integrity of the game. But, by bashing someone that doesn't know, isn't helping out the cause either. It is better to educate than to chastise, or else they may just leave the game all together, thinking that those of us that do bowl on a regular basis, are a bunch of uptight people.

Take the time to explain WHY this is not acceptable, not "I would yank your card in a heartbeat". What does that solve? I have to admit too, that the rule book has changed quite a bit over the years. Some of the rules in the current book have been edited a bit and aren't spelled out as clearly as they used to be, creating these "gray areas" that inferno mentioned. It may be spelled out on-line, but not in the Handbook that is given to the secretaries and bowling centers.

I looked this exact rule up one night in the book, trying to educate someone on it, because they threw at their spare with the opposite hand. And nowhere did it state that you couldn't use the opposite hand. It vaguely gave an explanation, that could have been interpreted a couple of ways. Also, it involved a spare in the tenth frame, of the last game, that helped them win the game by 8 pins, which they should have lost due to the rule infraction. Luckily for him, the team he was bowling knew that this was his first sanctioned league and didn't make it an issue. However they did mention that what he did was against the rules. He started to argue the point, saying they were making a big deal out of it and I had to help him understand that, no they weren't making a big deal out of it, just letting him know that it was against the rules (for future reference), that they still let them have the win, or else they would have forfeited that game and total pinfall too.

Bottom line, it's better to educate them on the rules and regulations of the game, than to just say "no, that's wrong, you're done". They never learn anything that way and may never want to participate ever again. And if there are no new bowlers, then there won't be any need for bowling alleys, leaving those of us that do enjoy it, without.
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#70719 - 11/16/08 11:12 AM Re: League rule help [Re: Stormin Norman Fan]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: Jekyl6573
Just need to know if she is correct in what she is saying or if she is harassing me.


Stormin Norman Fan, that is the question that was asked. So we told him that she is correct and some even cited the rules. When someone responds that there is no clear rule pertaining to the situation when there is and its been cited several times that's when integrity is brought up. On the other hand, in real life ignorance of a law or rule isn't an excuse for breaking it and has it's consequences.

Like I said in my first post, I have no issue with giving someone a benefit of the doubt they don't know the rule and give them a fair warning, which it seemed the Secretary did. She isn't harassing him, someone brought it to her attention and she took care of the situation. Of course this should be the President's job which unless he/she also worked for the same company would have made the things going on outside of bowling a non-issue.

As for the online Rule Book versus the hard copy passed out, it is my understanding it is the same thing, as the online version is just a digital version that one can use a search feature to make things easier while the one handed out to league officers is printed. I haven't seen a hard copy, but from what I've read on other sites it sounds like they are the same.
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#70723 - 11/16/08 11:47 AM Re: League rule help [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9814
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Cal, hard copy and on-line are the same. On-line seems to be updated quicker while the hard copy waits for the next printing.

But, as you, I read this as an attempt to circumvent the written rules with alternate conditions and circumstances being presented in 'What If' manner. The rule is the rule. Like it or leave it.

Just because the Secy works at the same place has NO bearing on the issue.
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#70748 - 11/16/08 06:10 PM Re: League rule help [Re: Jekyl6573]
Jekyl6573 Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 6
A/S/L: cali
"Imagine you bowl lefty the first time you sub, establish a lower average, and then decide to bowl right handed to take advantage of it. Then bowl lefty again to bring it a bit lower again."

I must have not explained myself well enough.

When I bowl right handed..I use whatever my average is for my right hand. In the league that I sub for, My name is on the league sheet twice. One name has R/H at the end with my right hand average. The other name has L/h at the end with my left hand average. I'm not using one average for both hands. That's just stupid.

Stormin Norman you're cool man. You got what I was feeling from this forum. I asked a question and get made to feel like a criminal. You guys respond with such anger as if I committed murder. To me it feels like you guys are that cop who pulls people over for going 5mph over the speed limit. I think I had a legit question that warranted no hostile responses. Instead people answer my question and then throw in their two cents with ..well I would have done this to you and that. Which then opens up a whole other discussion that is soooo unnecessary.

From all of your responses, I have concluded that she is not harassing me. Those are the rules for now. Thank you


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#70749 - 11/16/08 06:42 PM Re: League rule help [Re: Jekyl6573]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
I don't think anyone responded with anger, but maybe a few with some frustration. After several people stated what you did was illegal according to the USBC Rulebook and either cited the rule number, or even copied the rule to this forum, you didn't feel it pertained to your situation or that it wasn't clear. This is when the integrity discussion started. It is true there are many unclear rules, but this one isn't one of them. Also if you have read many of the other threads on this site you will see that they rarely stay on the original topic after a few posts that change them slightly and this post was no different.
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#70752 - 11/16/08 07:04 PM Re: League rule help [Re: Jekyl6573]
Jekyl6573 Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 6
A/S/L: cali
ok you win....

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#70755 - 11/16/08 08:04 PM Re: League rule help [Re: Jekyl6573]
Mkirchie Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 873
A/S/L: 39/M/New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Jekyl6573
When I bowl right handed..I use whatever my average is for my right hand. In the league that I sub for, My name is on the league sheet twice. One name has R/H at the end with my right hand average. The other name has L/h at the end with my left hand average. I'm not using one average for both hands.


I can't believe that someone even let you establish two different averages with two different hands in the same league in the first place. You were essentially listed as two different bowlers, not one. Not only that, but that they let it go on for as many weeks as you have stated, that should have been handled the second week the first time you changed hands. Although it is against the rules, they let it go way too long.

Mark
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#70762 - 11/16/08 10:17 PM Re: League rule help [Re: Mkirchie]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9814
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
You also have to understand the positions of some of the posters here. Some like Cal and myself are more into rules, as we have been asked to find and quote them in the past. Another, like Erin actually works in an Association Office, and is closer to the administration function of following the rules. So, there are different perspectives on reading and following rules. Cal and I as league Officers are asked rules interpretations often while Erin has to administer adherance.

You are one of those bowlers who ask a question, hear an answer, and have a right to question why, but not ignore what the intent of the rule is.
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#70771 - 11/16/08 11:25 PM Re: League rule help [Re: Jekyl6573]
SilentTuba Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 85
A/S/L: 25/M/NJ
I think we all need to keep in mind that on the internet, no one can hear the inflection in your voice. Something you intend to be polite can be easily misconstrued as being rude or defensive, and can set off a chain reaction, or a flame war. Believe me when I tell you, this is the single most polite and levelheaded forum I have ever seen, so if you are illiciting what you perceive as a harsh reaction, you should reexamine the tenor of your posts, and see where your intentions may have been misunderstood.

As for...
Originally Posted By: Jekyl6573
ok you win....


...it isn't about winning here. It's simply about trying to clarify the rules. You didn't know what they were, and to you, it seemed like a foolish rule. Fair enough. Others have explained that they think it is not a foolish rule, and have gone so far as to explain how severe the penalty might be for breaking it. No one was attacking you, just saying hey, you can't do that, you can get your sanction card revoked. To further explain the severity, Erin mentioned that, if she were in the position of your league secretary, she would have started the process already....it's considered that serious. Take that for what it is, and move forward.

As for your league secretary, from the way you phrased your question ("wondering if she's harassing me), think of it this way....you now know what the rule is. You also know how serious the penalty is. Her coming to you, telling that you are not to switch, and that they are going to be watching to make sure you don't switch, was the exact opposite of harassment....she was cutting you a break. That's how I see it, anyway.

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