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#70693 - 11/15/08 09:47 PM Re: League rule help [Re: greggas]
Cryssen Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 09/05/08
Posts: 97
A/S/L: 29/M/Louisville, KY, USA
Pardon me if it's irrelevent, but since he is a sub in this league, does that make a difference?
15# Ebonite Mission X (Pin under)
15# Ebonite Magic
15# Ebonite Cyclone
15# Circle Rio Plastic(Spare Ball)

HGS: 274
HSS: 732

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#70694 - 11/15/08 10:03 PM Re: League rule help [Re: Cryssen]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Doesn't matter if he's a sub, all subs are to be USBC sanctioned in a USBC league and therefore have to adhere to those rules. After all, if he wouldn't have to pay for sanctioning then his scores wouldn't count either.


#70698 - 11/15/08 11:23 PM Re: League rule help [Re: Atochabsh]
NewEnglandBowler Offline
High Roller

Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 364
A/S/L: 24/m/MA, USA
Erin you seem very angry about this issue. :-/

i remember a rule about not switching hands in the middle of a league nights, but i had no prior knowledge of a rule stating that you could not bowl with both hands, using only one hand on different league days. i know if i did that (which i can't, i bowl terrible with my left hand) i would appreciate a warning not to do it anymore, rather than just a sanction card pull without any warning. but i suppose that's just the route that some people decide to take, why they would do so is beyond me.
Composite Avg: 202.80
HG: 278 (3/10/13)
HS: 766 (4/25/13)
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Innovate, First Blood, Jet Black Taboo, T-Zone Orange

#70700 - 11/16/08 12:49 AM Re: League rule help [Re: NewEnglandBowler]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Yes I am and I'll tell you why. People say that bowling has lost it integridy and they blame the lane conditions and new dynamic balls. But the way I see it is that the competators do not have integridy with lack of competativeness and scorn of the rules put in by the governing body. The excuse of not knowing the rules is just another example. Who competes in a game where dues are paid (oh yeah I forgot, subs tend to not pay dues and therefore are not invested in the game), and prize fund is given without knowing anything about the rules? Happens in bowling all the time, but you don't get in a car and drive without knowing the rules. And reguardless of the conditions and equipment, if the competators do not honor the game then what's the use? I mean coming in one week bowling right handed, then left handed, then right handed.....what the heck. What kind of honor does that give the game you're just playing not competing. And I understand that we have handicap and therefore it seems that it shouldn't matter after all handicap will balance it out either way. But when you start playing with the ethics of the game and treating it like a joke, then its hard to regain any honor and integidy that's been lost. Right now its just a game, switching back and forth, but it won't be long before one night you hit a tough team and you make a choice of hands to use instead of just arbitrary back and forth. The players don't honor the rules, the league officers don't honor the rules then how can we ever have this sport taken seriously?

Olympics??? don't even bother to bring it up.



#70701 - 11/16/08 12:54 AM Re: League rule help [Re: Atochabsh]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
The process for having your card pulled and a bowler suspended is very complex and full of warnings, letters and meetings. There is ample opportunity for a league and bowlers to settle the matter before any official suspension, but there are procedures that have to be followed. There's your warnings, if the league wasn't already gracious enough to give a verbal warning first.


#70702 - 11/16/08 01:13 AM Re: League rule help [Re: Atochabsh]
Jekyl6573 Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 6
A/S/L: cali
K.M. Ryan you got it right. There is no rule that specifically outlines what it is that I am asking about. It seems that rule 118 is assumed by many, to be the answer to my question.


"Absolutely I'd start process to have your card pulled because the way you described it you were doing this during league play, not before."

I never said I switched hands during league play. That's a big no no. I said whatever hand I started with is the hand I stayed with the entire night. There must be some underlining prejudice regarding this subject. I think something is automatically assumed of those who can bowl with either hand. In tournaments you have to take the highest booked average anyways. I do not bowl tournaments and have no intentions of starting.

"But when you start playing with the ethics of the game and treating it like a joke,"

Seriously? Are you saying that I am treating this wonderful, beautiful, awesome best damn game on the planet called bowling like a joke because I am able to use both hands? I don't even know how that's possible

#70703 - 11/16/08 02:15 AM Re: League rule help [Re: Jekyl6573]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Yes you are treating league play as a joke because you are not playing at your optimum best. If you know you average in the 190s right handed and 150s left handed then you are purposely not bowling to your optimum potential.

You cannot change hands week to week in league play without a league meeting and a vote allowing you to do so. This is typically done for injuries, not whim.

There is no prior prejudice, just a very sad and apparently senseless voice that this game is not given the honor it could, by its own participants, due in part to these types of games that people play.

With your continued arguement for this, I renew my support that I would have taken measures to have meetings that would bring your membership up for suspension because you just don't seem to get it. And the sport doesn't need that.

I have known people that bowled entire seasons with one hand and then next with the other. PLus they also earned honor scores in those seasons no matter the hand they were using. But they stuck with one hand throughout the season. When we enter in the year to end averages there's a spot to mark for which hand it was earned under. So its not that light a subject. You cannot go back and forth; period.


Edited by Atochabsh (11/16/08 02:22 AM)

#70704 - 11/16/08 02:37 AM Re: League rule help [Re: Atochabsh]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
118. Establish New Average due to Change in Delivery

If because of injury or disability a bowler finds it necessary to change delivery from right- to left-handed or vice-versa, the league’s board of directors, by majority vote, may permit the bowler to change delivery. If approval is obtained, the bowler must establish a new average.

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 118e

May a bowler switch his/her delivery after the start of the season due to injury?

Yes. However, the bowler is required to obtain permission from the league’s board of directors. If the bowler were later able to return to their original hand delivery, permission would again have to be obtained from the board. No combination of scores bowled both right- and left-handed can be used in computing an average. Therefore, two separate averages would have to be maintained. A bowler who switches without permission forfeits those games.

Take note of the very last sentance. So your first 8 weeks of league play are up for forfeture and recalculation of all wins and losses.


#70705 - 11/16/08 02:58 AM Re: League rule help [Re: Atochabsh]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9820
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Erin is absolutely correct, and that is why I posted the rule numbers. A bowler cannot arbitrarily change his had of delivery as he sees fit, unless the league Board of Directors agrees that he may do so.

The rules are written as an allowance for injury and disability. Those are the only allowable cases to discuss. Not to just allow someone to change arbitrarily.
LM - Black Diamond 15#
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#70712 - 11/16/08 09:02 AM Re: League rule help [Re: Dennis Michael]
Mkirchie Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 896
A/S/L: 39/M/New Jersey
I have to agree with the majority of people in this thread. If you were to do that, with the difference in average, you might as well be two different bowlers bowling subbing under the same name. In any league that I am in, after you have subbed the first week under your most recent book average, you establish an average in that league. The next time you sub, you have to bowl under that average that you established, not your most recent book average. I can't imagine that any league secretary would let you carry two established averages, one right handed, one left handed, or let you sub under your most recent book average week after week even though you have already bowled a decent amount of games in the league. Imagine you bowl lefty the first time you sub, establish a lower average, and then decide to bowl right handed to take advantage of it. Then bowl lefty again to bring it a bit lower again. It would seem to be a way to perform average management without it looking too suspicious to others.

Even if you had pretty much the same average for both hands, I'd still be against it. Let's say you bowl in a 2nd shift league, you could watch the bowlers on the 1st shift, see how many rightys/leftys are on the pair and watch where they are playing. Then, you determine which hand you want to use based on whichever hand gets you closest to your most comfortable shot to the pocket.

As said earlier, if you want to bowl with both hands, bowl righty in one league and lefty in another. Unless you're injured, I see no legitimate reason to make the switch in the same league, and especially doing it on a week to week basis.

Current Average - 225

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