BowlingFans.com, The site for the fans, by the fans....
Sponsored Links




ChatBox:

Sponsored Links


Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#6913 - 11/08/05 03:05 PM Your Thoughts
MADDOG Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 73
A/S/L: 33/MALE/VA.
I posted this question in the bowlers lounge and see now that its more fit in this section.

I'm on a mixed leauge where we have 2 women and 2 men but all the league requires is that you have at least 1 female on the team. We are in our 9th week and I wanted to get peoples thoughts about something that has happened on our league.
The other male on my team lost his job and couldnt afford to bowl with us anymore so he had to drop off the team. He was a 168 bowler and I'm a 198 bowler at this time. The women on my team have 125 and 138 averages. It was left up to me to try to find a replacement for the guy and it didnt matter what the average or [censored] of the person was. The team captain is the 138 female and she asked my thoughts about what we should do. To fully make you understand whats going on I'll have to go back 9 weeks to the beginning of the season.
I had bowled with this same team last year and we finished about midway up the list out of 20 teams. The ladys had decided last year that they wasnt going to bowl the following year (This season) so I showed up looking to sub on the leage regardless. When I walked through the door the league secretary said "Man am I glad to see you and I have just the team for you to join." I told him I wasnt looking to join a team but wanted to sub so that I could get my 20 games in to bowl tournaments. He went on to tell me that my old team was still going to bowl this year but one of the ladys on the team had gotten her husband to bowl in my place. I said that was fine and to give me some time to think about joining the league. While I was going around talking to people the man from my old team came up to me and asked me to bowl. I told him "I thought Bea had gotten her husband to bowl so I was just looking to sub. He said no she was only getting him to bowl because the secratery told her that he couldnt get in touch with you. Come to find out the secretary was wanting me to join his team.....lol...I was 3rd high average holder last year and I guess he thought I could help his team win. So I told the secretary I was going to bowl with my old team and I could tell by the look on his face that he didnt like that.
So back to today....As I said the man had to drop off the team so the captain asked what I thought we should do. I told her if she could help me pay the vacant spot by taking turns with me paying the empty spot I would find someone else. In the mean time I would get a sub to take his spot. I am a 200+ bowler and bowl on scratch leagues but this mixed league is just practice for me. I had asked one of my team mates from the scratch league to bowl on my mixed team until I can find someone to fill the spot. Well the night he showed up he shot 757 and with my 6 something we won all 4 games. All through that night the league secretary kept comeing up to me asking if my friend was going to join my team. I kept telling him no that he's just subbing. The secretary went on to tell me that I should take the spot as vacant and use the franchise money to cover the vacant spot because thats what its there for. I told him no that I would pay double each night and use a sub for the rest of the year before I'd do that. The next week I had my friend sub again and this time he shot 735 and I shot 650 and again we won all 4 games. The ladys on my team asked my friend to bowl with us full time and he said he couldnt because he couldnt afford it being that he was already bowling 3 nights a week. Well this past week was a possision round and I asked the secretary if I could have a sub the week before. He said yes that I could because its only the first quarter and wont effect anything. So I had my friend come back out to sub again. This time when I walked in the bowling alley they called a captains meeting. In my heart I knew what it was all about. I had a feeling that people wasnt going to like the fact that I had my friend bowling on my team. I didnt go to the meeting because I wasnt a captain but when the captain came back she asked me to guess what it was about. I told her and she said I was right. They wanted to get a vote on raising the handicap. The handicap was already voted in at the first of the year for 100% of 210. Now they have voted to change it to 100% of 250. My captain was the only one not to raise her hand. The choice was made because of one mans average of 250 and 2 700 weeks. We went on and bowled but I was not happy about the change at all. In fact it got into my head so bad that I didnt bowl as good that night. My friend didnt bowl as good either and we lost all 4 games. I'm not upset about the losing but what I am upset about is that its a handicap league who thinks they can change the handicap through the year to benifit them. This is the way I see it.....My friend is not a 250 bowler but more like a 210 bowler. When they raised the handicap up they gave him 2 pins when he had 0 before the change. Now that he didnt shoot his average the other night his average will drop. Will they call him a sandbagger now and wanna lower the handicap back down? Also could his color have anything to do with it? I say this because there's another man who is white on the league who has his PBA lisence to go PRO and shot 750 the same week my friend shot 757. The same man carrys a 200+ average and has another 200 bowler on his team but they have been losing and are close to the bottom. This same team finished high last year in second spot but nothing was said about that. They made a point in the meeting to call out my friends name and say he's the reason and they feel with him on my team no one will have a chance to win. The league Pres. came up to me that night and asked how we was doing. I said you're about the 5th person in the last 30min to come up and ask that. I told him we was doing poorly and losing. He asked why and I told him we was laying low so that the rest of the league can have a chance. He said "I've been bowling on this league for the last 5 years and my team has won the last 3. If one thing i've learned over that time its not to take any prisoners." I didnt know what that meant but I said "I guess since we beat your winning team 2 weeks ago over 150 pins I can guess you voted to add 40 pins to your handicap." He just walked away. Now I will not bowl on this league next year and thats a fact. This is what I did to fix the problem. I asked my friend if I paid every other week would he join the team and he said "After tonight and I see how they are then yes I'll join the team."
I guess I wanna get some input to see how others feel about this. Does anyone know if this is even leagle to change the handicap up and down to benifit everyone else but my team? The way I see it is like this. Changing the handicap did help the other team last week and they won 4 games. Whats going to happen this week when my friends handicap goes from 2 sticks to 20 sticks and over the next couple weeks it turns into 40 sticks because he's a 210 bowler? I'll tell you.....We'll start winning again and then they'll wanna change the handicap back down to 100% of 210. (Keep in mind we bowled 2 weeks before I got my friend to sub and we was already winning with out him.) When they vote to make the change again they'll be looking for 2 more people on my team because I'll pack up and walk out and my friend will go with me.
_________________________
MADDOG

Top
#10100 - 1 second ago Sponsored Links
Sponsored Links Online   content
Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
Top
#6914 - 11/08/05 03:24 PM Re: Your Thoughts
Smooth Stroker Offline
Legend

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 1905
A/S/L: 45/M/Long Island
In my limited experience, usually you raise the handicap average to help the high average bowler. In your case with the handicap being 100 percent of 250 that would killl a high average bowler. The real problem is the 100 percent handicap. That is designed for fun leagues so the average joe or jill can be competitive. If you crave more competition, you should stick to the more competitve high average leagues. Mixed leagues are usually more fun, unless you have some really high average women in your house ( not to say there aren't, so don't kill me Erin ). Whenever I join a mixed league I find out up front what the low average is in the league. That way I know what type of league I'm joining.

To answer your changing the league handicap during mid-season, That happened to me last year. After about 10 weeks, The league President noticed that there were several bowlers above 230 in average. So the league president took a vote on raising the handicap to 90 percent of 240 to make it more fair to the high average guys. Nobody seemed to mind the change much.
_________________________
A Storm is coming.

IQ Tour Fusion
IQ Tour anniversary edition
Lights Out
Natural

USBC level 1 certified coach

Top
#6915 - 11/08/05 03:46 PM Re: Your Thoughts
MADDOG Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 73
A/S/L: 33/MALE/VA.
I wouldnt mind either if it wasnt for the fact that this hasnt been a problem for the last 3 years while the Pres. of the leagues team was winning. His team has won 1st the last 3 years and he was one of the first to raise his hand to vote.
Also the second place team last year has 2 200+ bowlers on thier team this year which one of the guys just got his PBA card. That team is close to the bottom now.
These teams wasnt mentioned as to the reason of the handicap change. It was only because of one bowler subbing on my team and what he had bowled the last 2 weeks. I'm a 200+ bowler my self but bowl with 2 women with low averages and the league tried thier best to get me to go with a vacancy instead of a sub or getting another bowler to join. The first vote was to vote that my buddy couldnt bowl on my team at all .....Why?...Its a handicap league and if they didnt want 200 bowlers on the league they should have stated that in the beginning of the year when they decided to raise the handicap up from 90% of 210 to 100% of 210 and said this is just a 200 and below league. My team finished at the bottom last year and obviously they see my team as a thret this year and wanna do everything in thier power to keep us from winning. I do bowl other leagues such as scratch leagues and high roller leagues. Maybe I'm making a big deal about this for nothing but I'll say this.....When I walked through the door on the first night of bowling this year the secretary came up to me and said this league is falling apart....If he thinks its bad this year wait until next year when my team doesnt come back.
_________________________
MADDOG

Top
#6916 - 11/08/05 05:54 PM Re: Your Thoughts
BillinPhilly Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 264
A/S/L: 50 / M / Malvern, PA
Wow, what a story. But typical of some leagues I've been in.

There are various handicapping systems. I am returning to bowling again after about a 6 year break. But all the leagues I ever bowled in were a straight 80% of the difference handicap. I never bowled using the 80% or 100% of 210 system. The straight 80% of the difference system favors the higher average teams and players.

The 80% of 210 (or some other imaginary number) system gives the advantage to the lower average players in my opinon. Because I think it is much more likely that a 130 or a 150 average is going to be 40 or 50 pins over his average than it is that a 200 average bowler is going to be 40 or 50 pins over his - by the nature of the game. A 200 average guy is already performing at such a high level that one slip up pretty much costs him his average. A 130-150 average guy has alot more room to get lucky a couple times and rack up a high game over average.

This is another example of the conflicting rules and information that bowling gives us. They encourage us to practice, to try hard, and to raise our averages. Then they penalize you for doing it by helping the lower average beat you easier. And its yet another example of how leagues end up shooting themselves in the foot, and why attendance is down, and why people get fed up and frustrated with bowling.

That said - I personally have always not liked subs. Period. I have always felt cheated when a sub - who is not a member of the team I'm bowling against - comes in and bowls - and bowls well - and causes me to lose games. The only arguments I've ever had in bowling were over subs and their use - and abuse. So I can also see the point of view of the rest of the teams in your league - if the guy bowling 250 is not on your team, and is not a member of your team - why should he be bowling against them in the first place, and why should they all be losing games because of him? It doesn't matter whether he can afford to bowl with you - you said he already bowls in 3 other leagues, so he obviously doesn't NEED to bowl in your league. Not like that's his only bowling.

So while you might feel cheated because they raised the handicap because of your team - remember that other people onother teams are also feeling anrgy and disgusted because they're facing a guy every week who is not on your team who is throwing 700 series and costing them games. Is that fair from their point of view? So some of them are probably saying the same thing - what a lousy league, what lousy rules, they let these guys away with this, and WE'RE not coming back next year!
So it goes both ways. Your secretary and president were probably getting an ear full every week.

I guess it depends on the competitiveness of the league. And your league was apparently pretty competitive, because they originally had the 100% of the imaginary system. They only raised the limit because of your firiend - which is fair and is how that system is supposed to work. The imaginary number has to be higher than the highest player's average. Its really not like they adopted a toally different system on you or made a special rule just to affect you.

The fact the the secretary was asking you to join his team shoul dbe taken as a compliment - you're obviously a good bowler. But I don't think the rule is to spite you because you wouldn't join his team.

Look at both sides of the issue.
_________________________
"Bowling should be played by bowlers, not physicists." - CoachJim

Top
#6917 - 11/08/05 06:24 PM Re: Your Thoughts
MADDOG Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 73
A/S/L: 33/MALE/VA.
Broncobilly?....You make some valuable points but I ahev one questions for you. I understand why they raised the handicap but should they have done it based on 2 weeks? I bowl with this guy on other leagues and he averages right with me 200+ but not over 210 and will never have over 210. Both of us last week shot in the 6's in the 3rd week. He decided last week to join our team. So my question to you is...When his average comes down to where it belongs 210 or under would he be called a sandbagger and would they want to lower the handicap? If they do shuffle the handicap for the 3rd time to once again try to stay one step ahead of us is that leagle? Every one can be in a slump and then have 2 or 3 very good weeks if the shot is right but thats why we have an average and your average isnt really leagle until you have 20 games or better. At least thats the way it is to shoot tournaments. Right now after they adjusted the handicap they he still ended up with 2 pins. After last week he'll now have 25 pins...and after next week unless he shoots 700 again (Which I doubt he will) will bring him down to my level at 50 pins. As you say I think he shot him self in the foot.
_________________________
MADDOG

Top
#6918 - 11/08/05 06:27 PM Re: Your Thoughts
MADDOG Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 73
A/S/L: 33/MALE/VA.
Oh and Bronco....We was still winning before my friend joind the team just using the guy who quit blind average.
_________________________
MADDOG

Top
#6919 - 11/08/05 06:58 PM Re: Your Thoughts
BillinPhilly Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 264
A/S/L: 50 / M / Malvern, PA
Whether they lower the handicap again or not is up to the league officers and a vote of the team captains. Yes, they can adjust this as many times as they want, and it is legal. As long as the majority of the team captains vote for it. And that is such a high handicap, I'd bet they will lower it again. If I had a high average team, I'd be arguing to lower it until I was red faced.

I agree that 2 weeks of bowling "does not a season make". And over the course of a season, it is natural for somebody's average to go up and down. And the fewer games you have in, the more one low game will affect your average. So no, I don't think anybody will accuse you of cheating or "sandbagging" if his average goes down a little.

That kind of "trash talk" always goes on - "This league stinks, I'm not coming back" and the people saying that are always the first ones to sign up again the following year. I've been bowling off and on for over 30 years, and it's always been that way.

If you have reason to believe the secretary is acting unfair or has something against you, try talking to the league president or vice-president, or better yet, have your captain do it. Your captain is the one who has the authority on your team. There are other officers besides the secretary. But the officers and team captians together make those decisions about handicaps and stuff.
_________________________
"Bowling should be played by bowlers, not physicists." - CoachJim

Top
#6920 - 11/08/05 07:07 PM Re: Your Thoughts
BillinPhilly Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 264
A/S/L: 50 / M / Malvern, PA
Oh - I forgot to ask if your league is sanctioned or not. If they're not sanctioned, then ANYTHING goes, and the only rules are the ones they make. If your league is sanctioned, they have to go by USBC rules (used to be ABC/WIBC, now USBC from what I understand). You can dowload a rule book and also get answers to common questions from the USBC's website at:

http://www.bowl.com

and read it. It will answer these kinds of questions for you. Every bowler in a sanctioned league should look at these or have them, so you know if what your league is doing is fair or not.

Hope this helps!
_________________________
"Bowling should be played by bowlers, not physicists." - CoachJim

Top
#6921 - 11/08/05 07:32 PM Re: Your Thoughts
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Well, I'm a stout anti-100% handicap person. I don't think you can be called COMPETATIVE and demand 100% handicap. The better bowlers are like that because they 1. practise, 2. read materials to gain knowledge 3. stay on top of bowling technology 4. take lessons. Its my opinion that if you are not willing to do any of the above , you cannot balance the scales by demanding 100% handicap. For all those lower average bowlers....get better! Or at least make an attempt to get better.

I too hate subs. We NEVER use them on our team. And always make sure that league rules do NOT allow subs for any position rounds or roll offs. I also think that it is important at the beginning of the season to add to your league rules if subs establish after one week or 9 games or whatever. See if the league rules say that subs establish the first week, then its the league's problem if someone shoots big. But raising the bar for the handicap to 250 at least includes your friend. That had to be done. And its just too bad that he had two career nights one right after the other. Now he'll be dropping his average probably. If I were you, I'd not take that sub on, since maintaining a 240+ average is over his head.

As for USBC and individual league rules. Typically USBC (old ABC) went along with voted in league rules as long as they did not directly go against established ABC play rules. So a league can basically do whatever they want as long as they do it through votes and such. Another rule you might want to suggest to the league is an average cap. I have bowled in handicap leagues where there were average caps. So if the league is made up of mostly lower average bowlers (and don't want high average players) they can set the cap the maintain that vacinity of averages. Say 4 man mixed team capped at 700 or 650. Then subs coming in must have a book average or established current house average , or they are not eligible to sub .

In your situation, I'd try my hardest to find a permanent team member, then all this will go away.

Erin

Top
#6922 - 11/08/05 08:01 PM Re: Your Thoughts
BillinPhilly Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 264
A/S/L: 50 / M / Malvern, PA
The problem is that other teams do use subs. And as I said in another post, if I had a dollar for every time a sub who was supposed to have a 130 average came in and bowled 185 all night long, I could probably retire to my own private island.

And when you also take sandbagging into account, yes, there' s plenty of room to cheat. And none of this can be proven - its next to impossible.

One way I know guys do it is to have a bowler who is a friend establish an artificially low average in one league that is not a money league, like a typical Sunday night mixed league. Or they have them establish their average by subbing in the same league. Then they have somebody sit out and call on that guy whenever they need a big win - place rounds if they're not prohibited by rules, as you pointed out. So they get a sub who has an artificially low average come in and bowl well over that - and if one or two guys were sandbagging and keeping their averages down, too, this is an effective strategy. It's cheating, but go ahead and try to prove it.

I always ask for a no sub rule, but the leagues never want to do it, especially in summer leagues, saying its unfair. And I've also been a victim of a team using the "we have to be able to add to get to a full roster" rule, by having their lowest guy quit toward the end, so they have to be allowed to pick up their sub with the artificially low average.

I'm with you, if it were up to me, I'd ban subs altogether. And also yes, 100% handicap is ridiculous, unless its a serious money league, and even then.... I agree 100% handicap does not encourage anybody to get better, and I do believe it favors the lower average bowlers - and that's worse now in this day of reactive resin when lower average bowlers are more erratoc and more dangerous than ever. Som eof these guys will bowl 94 one game and 212 the next. So 100% handicap is really not fair.
_________________________
"Bowling should be played by bowlers, not physicists." - CoachJim

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >



Moderator:  Angel, Community Manager 
Savings That Support BowlingCommunity.com
We need your help!
Rather than begging for donations we're asking you to do one simple thing to help keep these forums running smooth:
When shopping for anything on Amazon.com or eBay please use these links to go to the web sites.

This won't cost you a cent!
You'll still get the exact same low prices, deals and free or low cost shipping; it doesn't change anything for you at all! The items do not have to be bowling related; all purchases made through these links help us! Amazon.com and eBay will pay us a small commission for every sale and it's helping us cover the expenses.

BowlingCommunity.com Recent Posts
Quitting my League
by VFF57 - 33 minutes 53 seconds ago
This is a damned shame
by Mkirchie - 08/08/20 04:33 PM
Who is itching to get back on the lanes
by Mkirchie - 07/18/20 08:37 AM
Terms Of Use
Use of this community signifies your agreement to the Community Standards and Conditions of Use.

About BowlingFans.com | Contact Us | Advertise With Us | Site Map
Use of this website constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. | Material Connection Disclosure

Copyright © 1998 - 2020 - usrbingeek LLC | Copyright Policy
BowlingFans.com, BowlingFans, The Right Approach, Kegler's Connection, Tour411, BallBeat, BowlingCommunity.com, BowlSearch.com, and Bowling News You Can Use are trademarks of usrbingeek LLC. All other trademarks and tradenames are property of their respective owners.