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#66993 - 09/20/08 05:19 PM Re: Weight hole? [Re: bryhardt]
cgeorg Offline


Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 3567
A/S/L: Pittsburgh, Pa
Ricky: When sport patterns break down, skid/flip balls can work well. It was when they are fresh, there is no hole burnt into the pattern and the backends are dry, that you want a smoother reacting ball. Going into a game 4, 5, 6, etc, skid flip can work well on sport patterns. It all depends on how they break down.

bryhardt, reducing flare will cause the ball to experience less friction in the oil. This means that:

- The ball will not lose as much side rotation
- The ball will not lose as much energy

So, when it hits the dry boards, it will have more side rotation and more energy left. That's how snap is achieved. On the other hand, by adding flare, you would help it read the lane earlier, which will cause it to burn off some side rotation and revs. This may result in more overall hook, because the ball will start hooking earlier, but it will tend to be a much smoother transition from hook to skid to roll.

As others have said, there are lots of other adjustments that can be made before adding a weight hole - mainly, axis rotation and surface preparation.
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#66995 - 09/20/08 06:26 PM Re: Weight hole? [Re: cgeorg]
bryhardt Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 52
A/S/L: 35/M/St. Louis
Just to clarify, I think there are a couple elements getting confused with flare and rotation.

More rotation means more skid and more flip/hook when the ball reaches the friction. Less rotation will cause the ball to read the lanes earlier and have a smoother transition at the break point with less hook.

Flare is related to the bowling ball's differential. This can be impacted by the core design, layouts, and X-Holes as we are discussing. More flare means as the ball transitions, it has fresh surface to contact the lane and will grip harder. On the other hand, less flare creates a more stable reacting bowling ball, since the ball itself is more stable.

If you combine high rotation with high flare, you will have a ball that has max skid that will react violently when the friction is reached. Lower rotation with high flare will cause the ball to still finish stronger than a lower flaring ball, but will have less flip than the high flaring ball.
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#67014 - 09/21/08 10:23 AM Re: Weight hole? [Re: bryhardt]
cgeorg Offline


Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 3567
A/S/L: Pittsburgh, Pa
What you're failing to take into account here is the impact of the flare while the ball is still in the oil. While the ball is travelling the length of the pattern, with higher flare, it will be seeing more friction. This causes it to lose energy and side rotation before it gets to the end of the oil pattern, where the actual hook can occur.

We had a very large discussion on this about a year ago - unfortunately, it was one of the threads that was lost during some database issues around that time. I actually spoke on the phone with a researcher from Brunswick at length about the affects of Track flare on hook shape. The result was that:

- 3 3/8" (max flare) would be have the earliest reaction, and less backend than other drillings.
- 5 3/16" (medium flare, "half leverage") Good combination of length and strong backend reaction. He seemed to like this one as a general purpose drilling (I assume that this would be for someone with enough revs to not need a leverage drilling)
- 6" (Minimal flare) Most length. Backend reaction would depend on release. For a lower amount of axis rotation (say, 30 degrees), you would see less backend than the half leverage drilling. For a higher amount of axis rotation (90), you would see more backend reaction.

As discussed, those are all dependent on other factors (surface, core, coverstock, bowler) remaining constant, and I still the think the best answer to the question posed would be to change the surface preparation of the ball in question to a rougher grit, it possible.
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#94551 - 06/08/09 05:21 PM Re: Weight hole? [Re: cgeorg]
MoAxMan Offline
Junior Coach

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 47
A/S/L: 24 Male Charlotte, NC U.S.A.
Sorry to resurrect an old thread here, but I have a follow-up question regarding weight holes.

cgeorg you sited P4 in Mo Pinel's gradient line system as the position that will most increase the dynamics of the ball (I believe you are reducing the low-RG axis of the core thus increasing differential but I could be wrong) but I've also seen a position of 2 1/4" past the PAP on a line with the pin as a flare-increasing position (from the Brunswick website). Are these both right? Is one better than the other?

I have a Dimension that I use for heavy oil drilled leverage and I would like to make it a little earlier and smoother arcing motion as it's a little too angular for my taste. Seems like increasing flare potential is the best way to do that but with 500 grit and a leverage drilling it seems like a weight hole is my only option.
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#94560 - 06/08/09 08:27 PM Re: Weight hole? [Re: MoAxMan]
CoachJim Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 4665
A/S/L: Reston, Virginia USA
Quote:
(I believe you are reducing the low-RG axis of the core thus increasing differential but I could be wrong) but I've also seen a position of 2 1/4" past the PAP on a line with the pin as a flare-increasing position (from the Brunswick website). Are these both right? Is one better than the other?


That is exactly what the hole is doing, reducing the low-rg axis and increasing the differential by as much as 30%. What that means as far as ball reaction, I would like to know so post back and let me know how it goes.

Drill the hole big enough and deep enough to leave the ball around 0 to 1/2oz negative.

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#95022 - 06/12/09 04:33 PM Re: Weight hole? [Re: MoAxMan]
J_w73 Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 1013
A/S/L: 37/M/Northern CA
Originally Posted By: MoAxMan
Sorry to resurrect an old thread here, but I have a follow-up question regarding weight holes.

cgeorg you sited P4 in Mo Pinel's gradient line system as the position that will most increase the dynamics of the ball (I believe you are reducing the low-RG axis of the core thus increasing differential but I could be wrong) but I've also seen a position of 2 1/4" past the PAP on a line with the pin as a flare-increasing position (from the Brunswick website). Are these both right? Is one better than the other?

I have a Dimension that I use for heavy oil drilled leverage and I would like to make it a little earlier and smoother arcing motion as it's a little too angular for my taste. Seems like increasing flare potential is the best way to do that but with 500 grit and a leverage drilling it seems like a weight hole is my only option.


I believe most of the Brunswick x-hole references are to a pin at 3 3/8 from the pap.. so a hole 2 1/4 past the PAP would put the hole 5 5/8 from the pin.. This would be close enough to the side to be flare increasing.. I like the Ebonite site for their theory on weightholes better than the MoRich gradient.. P4 is the most because it is 6 3/4 from the pin. If you have a 6 inch pin to pap.. a weight hole on the PAP will be the least dynamic of the p1, p2, p3 ,p4 holes but it will still increase the flare..

ebonites theory.. 3 3/8 from pin just takes weight out and moves bowtie.. will not change core dyanmics or reacion(that much)..

shorter than 3 3/8 will shorten the core, lower differential
past 3 3/8 will reduce low rg and raise the differential.

Ebonite site says "As a rule of thumb, you can assume that 4 1/2 inches or more away from the pin will increase flare potential"

I will post their entire article in another post


Edited by J_w73 (06/12/09 04:37 PM)
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#95029 - 06/12/09 06:02 PM Re: Weight hole? [Re: MoAxMan]
J_w73 Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 1013
A/S/L: 37/M/Northern CA
Originally Posted By: MoAxMan
Sorry to resurrect an old thread here, but I have a follow-up question regarding weight holes.

cgeorg you sited P4 in Mo Pinel's gradient line system as the position that will most increase the dynamics of the ball (I believe you are reducing the low-RG axis of the core thus increasing differential but I could be wrong) but I've also seen a position of 2 1/4" past the PAP on a line with the pin as a flare-increasing position (from the Brunswick website). Are these both right? Is one better than the other?

I have a Dimension that I use for heavy oil drilled leverage and I would like to make it a little earlier and smoother arcing motion as it's a little too angular for my taste. Seems like increasing flare potential is the best way to do that but with 500 grit and a leverage drilling it seems like a weight hole is my only option.


yes a flare increasing hole will increase the flare but I don't know if it will make it smoother.. I think it will increase the backend.. I'm like Coach Jim here, I am still trying to figure out exactly what it will do to the ball dynamics on the lane cause when you describe it as flare increasing you would think it would hook earlier and be stronger.. thus (depending on the condition) could smooth out the reaction.. but I think for the most part if you have a high RG already.. and have high differential I think that gives you more backend and snap.

I think if you want smoother you would want to pop a hole right on the pin.. this would lower the rg and lower the differential. This might be tough to do depending on where the cg is.
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#95055 - 06/12/09 11:16 PM Re: Weight hole? [Re: J_w73]
TheDemolitionMan Offline
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Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 2818
A/S/L: 23/Male/California, US
You would be correct J_w73. Increase in flare equals more fresh surface of the ball to come in contact with the lane, i.e. more friction and more movement. Putting a weight hole nearer or on the pap to smooth out the reaction and tame it down.
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#95077 - 06/13/09 10:53 AM Re: Weight hole? [Re: TheDemolitionMan]
cgeorg Offline


Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 3567
A/S/L: Pittsburgh, Pa
If the coverstock of the ball is strong enough to get traction in the oil, the increase in flare will cause the ball to read the lane more before it exits the pattern, which will cause it to burn off some axis rotation and start the move to the pocket while still in the oil. This will be smoother than if the ball couldn't get traction until it hit the end of the pattern. So I think the tangible impact of the weight hole will be a function of coverstock strength.
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#95086 - 06/13/09 11:54 AM Re: Weight hole? [Re: TheDemolitionMan]
J_w73 Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 1013
A/S/L: 37/M/Northern CA
Originally Posted By: TheDemolitionMan
You would be correct J_w73. Increase in flare equals more fresh surface of the ball to come in contact with the lane, i.e. more friction and more movement. Putting a weight hole nearer or on the pap to smooth out the reaction and tame it down.


did you mean hole nearer or on the "pin"


that is the thing.. I don't like using the terminology of the weight hole on the pap or so many inches past the pap... that is just like talking about pin placement in relation to the finger holes and not distance from pap..we all know it is pin to pap distance that influences the reaction..

If I have a ball that is 5.5 inches pin to pap and a ball that is 3 3/8 pin to pap.. a weight hole on the 5.5 inch pin is still going to increase the flare quite a bit... and the 3 3/8 it probably won't change the reaction that much.. just change the bowtie..
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