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#6549 - 08/04/05 11:44 PM Re: League formats not ball specs are reason for bowler membership decline!
stroker2005 Offline
Junior

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 27
A/S/L: 43/m/tx
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by Angel Zobel-Rodriguez:
Almost every league I bowl in has some sort of rolloff and round winners. Divisions on top of it? No thanks. It gets to the point where you're bowling the entire season and what's the point? Just wait til the last few weeks and then try to win. The entire Western Division of the National Baseball League pretty much stinks and one team gets to go to the playoffs while stronger teams in other divisions don't. What's really wrong with some people is that no one wants to work for anything. They want 100% handicap so they don't have to actually get better and they want to make the playoffs without being the best team.

As for the reason for league decline, I think you could award first place to EVERY team and I swear you'd still have turn over. People don't come back for a *variety* of reasons--some mentioned and others as simple as work schedules, busy family schedules/wanting to spend more time with their families, the increased costs of everything, you name it. If that format works for your league, great, but I strongly recommend against every league going out and implementing it and expecting no future turnover.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Angel, obviously there are many reasons bowlers quit, but I was really trying to weigh what this and other forums are posting about USBC's possible changes. Many people believe that if the USBC makes radical changes, lets say to lane conditions(making them more tougher), the average bowler would probably quit, thus the continuing decline in bowling. I on the other hand think that more bowlers are quiting b/c of league formats not being fair play.

"Almost every league I bowl in has some sort of rolloff and round winners. Divisions on top of it?"

In this format, only division winners would advance. No need for roll-offs or round winners.


" Divisions on top of it? No thanks. It gets to the point where you're bowling the entire season and what's the point? Just wait til the last few weeks and then try to win. The entire Western Division of the National Baseball League pretty much stinks and one team gets to go to the playoffs while stronger teams in other divisions don't."

Well, unless the team is that good that they can turn on a "switch" and start to play, nothing is guaranteed. In fact I think this will make teams concentrate better b/c they must win their division to make the playoffs. True, there will be teams according to their W-L record shouldn't be going to the PO's, but is it their fault that teams with better records don't take care of their own business? Besides, any changes in format or league rules will be done at the meeting, everyone will know first hand what's up! Another thing, shouldn't every team be given a chance to win the league? Just b/c there are teams that are not good, they don't deserve a chance? Like I said before, I don't like the 100% handicap system, but to me any handicap system isn't going to be fair to the weaker teams. Think of the long bowling season like a marathon. During the season every team will have its up and downs, but teams that will be able to ride out the slumps, make adjustments, and be consistant, will end up winning or be near the top, and those are the good strong teams. The weaker teams might be able to win in a 40yd dash(short season), but not a long one. In my case, there are 32 teams @ 36 weeks, all 32 teams under one roof. How fair is that? At midseason when there are many teams out of contention, why go on bowling? Under the standard format, there is more reason to have the "I'll take it easy now and start bowling to win" attitude! How? Well, I've seen it happen! Those teams will do a little sandbagging, coast a little, win enough games to stay within reach. Then they'll make their move knowing that the weaker teams won't have enough in them to catch them.

This divisional format would also eliminate the useless position round at the end. Most of the time PR's aren't important, b/c first place has already been decided. I remember at our meeting, we were dicussing PR's, and our president said that a "couple of years ago" first place came down to the final position round. A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO??? How about every year? Wouldn't it be more exciting if first place came down to the final night? That's the way it should be!!

I'm a competitor and I like challenges! So I'm always up for new ideas to make the league more interesting. If my team is a strong team, I know we would welcome the challenge to face an inferior team in the playoffs or for the championship knowing that all it takes is for them to have an incredible day, and they would win. But if we are a good team, we would dig deep and bowl are best, b/c we don't want to lose to an them. smile

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#6550 - 08/05/05 12:04 AM Re: League formats not ball specs are reason for bowler membership decline!
VtwinPodec Offline
Junior Master

Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 36
A/S/L: 34 / M / Geneva, Oh
Stroker, the way you have it laid out, sounds very interesting. Now, at what point do you figure teams will start being eliminated? You said 36 weeks for standard league now? How many weeks would the teams have to prepare/compete for those spots to move forward?
Am I undertanding this right? At some point teams will start being eliminated and those that remain will be bowling another night?

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#6551 - 08/05/05 02:43 AM Re: League formats not ball specs are reason for bowler membership decline!
Angel Offline


Registered: 02/02/01
Posts: 401
A/S/L: F/So Cal
I guess I'm of the bowling can be complicated enough variety. I can just imagine trying to explain this to someone barely comprehending the 4 point system. smile

Personally, I prefer just smaller niche leagues over trying to make one large league "work" better. But to each their own.
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#6552 - 08/05/05 03:00 AM Re: League formats not ball specs are reason for bowler membership decline!
VtwinPodec Offline
Junior Master

Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 36
A/S/L: 34 / M / Geneva, Oh
Angel, I will have to check in this area and see what is offered. At my previous 'home alley', there were four choices, men's league, mixed, ladies, kids. All were handicap.
I honestly do not know if there are choices in this area, as they are mostly closed for the season.

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#6553 - 08/05/05 12:02 PM Re: League formats not ball specs are reason for bowler membership decline!
Angel Offline


Registered: 02/02/01
Posts: 401
A/S/L: F/So Cal
You might want to check with a few different houses then. If you build a good rapport with one center, you may end up creating your own league. Personally I am not a fan of 32 team leagues as they are pretty impersonal (especially for people starting out). I even prefer to split my Adult/Jr. leagues into leagues of 10-12 teams each rather than a 24-28 lane megaleague.
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#6554 - 08/08/05 04:10 PM Re: League formats not ball specs are reason for bowler membership decline!
stroker2005 Offline
Junior

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 27
A/S/L: 43/m/tx
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by VtwinPodec:
Stroker, the way you have it laid out, sounds very interesting. Now, at what point do you figure teams will start being eliminated? You said 36 weeks for standard league now? How many weeks would the teams have to prepare/compete for those spots to move forward?
Am I undertanding this right? At some point teams will start being eliminated and those that remain will be bowling another night?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Sorry I took so long to respond. To answer the first part of your question, in order for teams to advance to the playoffs, they have to win their respective divisions. Just like your major sports, NFL,NBA,etc. From there, they will go to the playoffs. This could take place the following week, or what ever your league would decide. It could possibly come to the last night of the regular season for some divisions to be decided. To me that's GREAT! Because alot of teams will have a chance to advance to the playoffs. Another thing I wanted to point out was picking teams to be in each divisions. The way I would pick 'em would be to have the top 8 (my league is 32 teams w/4 division, 8 teams each) team averages in one division, the next 8 in the next division, and so on. In other words, the bottom 8 team averages would makeup the last division. So you see this format gives every team a better chance of making the playoffs and winning the league title. You would have 4 teams making the playoffs from different skill levels. Isn't that more fair than the standard format and raising the handicap?

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#6555 - 08/08/05 06:27 PM Re: League formats not ball specs are reason for bowler membership decline!
Angel Offline


Registered: 02/02/01
Posts: 401
A/S/L: F/So Cal
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by stroker2005:
The way I would pick 'em would be to have the top 8 (my league is 32 teams w/4 division, 8 teams each) team averages in one division, the next 8 in the next division, and so on. In other words, the bottom 8 team averages would makeup the last division. So you see this format gives every team a better chance of making the playoffs and winning the league title. You would have 4 teams making the playoffs from different skill levels. Isn't that more fair than the standard format and raising the handicap? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">OK, this is the point I have a problem with. The 8 strongest teams could only advance ONE team to the playoffs, and one of the 8 weakest would advance as well? This kind of flies in the face of attempting to field a competitive team, because a weak team is going to make the playoffs. Why try to make the most competitive team in a league if all you have to do is take 4 newbies, start out in the weak division and have them improve all season?

Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but I couldn't suggest this with a straight face to anyone.
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#6556 - 08/08/05 08:51 PM Re: League formats not ball specs are reason for bowler membership decline!
stroker2005 Offline
Junior

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 27
A/S/L: 43/m/tx
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by Angel Zobel-Rodriguez:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by stroker2005:
[b] The way I would pick 'em would be to have the top 8 (my league is 32 teams w/4 division, 8 teams each) team averages in one division, the next 8 in the next division, and so on. In other words, the bottom 8 team averages would makeup the last division. So you see this format gives every team a better chance of making the playoffs and winning the league title. You would have 4 teams making the playoffs from different skill levels. Isn't that more fair than the standard format and raising the handicap?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">OK, this is the point I have a problem with. The 8 strongest teams could only advance ONE team to the playoffs, and one of the 8 weakest would advance as well? This kind of flies in the face of attempting to field a competitive team, because a weak team is going to make the playoffs. Why try to make the most competitive team in a league if all you have to do is take 4 newbies, start out in the weak division and have them improve all season?

Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but I couldn't suggest this with a straight face to anyone. [/b]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Angel I'm not sure I understand your post. The idea here is to give every team a chance to win. So, if the league randomly drew divisions, then you might have good teams in each division, which would defeat the purpose of this format. Hey, there might be a better format out there, but you know what? I haven't seen one better! We've all been bowling under the same format for so long, that anything else seems wrong. I bring up the NFL, NBA, b/c this format is modeled after those sports. If you follow those sports (MLBA included), you know that some teams really don't deserve to be in the playoffs. And you also know that the team with the best record don't always win it all. But that is the exciting part of this format, every team would have a chance and anything could happen! Dividing the league by team averages to me is the best way to go about giving every team a chance. I just don't see the fun in being in a league, and by Christmas, some teams are saying," We'll get 'em next year!". Angel, obviously you don't agree with the format, and that's fine! I'm trying to reach those that are looking for something different in the league. I'm trying to reach those that are always on the losing end of the stick, and don't have any chance of winning the league. There are people out there that might like this idea. I know there will be alot of opposition on this, and it probably won't even pass in my league. But I'll keep on trying, and one of these days, there will be people who are willing to give it a try.

I don't know if I answered your post correctly, again explain your post.

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#6557 - 08/16/05 09:47 PM Re: League formats not ball specs are reason for bowler membership decline!
stroker2005 Offline
Junior

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 27
A/S/L: 43/m/tx
Well, another idea shot down! I don't think the league understood what I was explaining. Anyway, the playoff format thing is dead! I guess wait till next year....LOL!!!

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#6558 - 08/20/05 09:37 PM Re: League formats not ball specs are reason for bowler membership decline!
ron shields Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 08/17/05
Posts: 86
A/S/L: 49/male/central washington
We have 6 divisions and two confernces. each division has a winner and each conference has a wild card. every quarter we roll off. 8 teams winner advancing 3-8 are based on on total pin fall. 10 pins added for beating your man and 50 pins for a team victory.

Makes it real interesting during position round and roll offs.

Question: What can be done to make roll off night interesting for the teams not in roll off? I was thinking maybe a team individual or doubles bracket.
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