hi guys,
i was hoping some knowledge drillers would post here. i plan to go to a Pro Shop to get this fixed but i'm nervous that most of the drillers in my area don't know what they're doing. i just want some opinions before i get the same ball redrilled for the 4th time!

here's the deal: i used to have a thumb squeezing problem and couldn't get outta the ball. the driller put more reverse pitch in the ball so i could. it worked for awhile until i discovered how to relax my thumb. now i realize that i think the ball has either a span problem and/or a severe problem of to much reverse thumb pitch.

i feel the ball is either to loose and drops or it's to tight and won't come off my hand. if i add tape or my hand is sweaty, it sticks. if i take the tape out, i drop the ball. it always rubs at the bevel if it does stick. the ball also comes off my thumb about 1/2" during the swing and locks onto the knuckle. it just doesn't feel right.

here are some pics:

the way it fits when i just put my hand in it:



the way it sits on my hand as soon as it's put into swing:



another illustration of how far it comes off the thumb:



here is my span:





i'm not an expert in drilling yet but i know what my hand feels and it feels as though i should have forward pitch (either 0 or 1/8" maybe) and some more reverse pitch in the fingers.

btw, my span is right at 4" from tip of thumb to tip of fingergrip and my reverse pitch is 3/8 or more (not sure how much he added last drilling). i believe i have a little bit reverse finger pitch but i can't be positive on that one.


PLEASE HELP! ANY COMMENTS WELCOME!

Looks as if the span, thumb hole size and pitch are not correct. Try and find an IBPSIA certified shop, even if you have to go to another town.
Okotte

i know of a couple drillers round here. the one i know has had the classes that Ebonite offers. not sure if that's certification or not.

how do u know okorimbo my span and thumb pitch is off? should i have a longer span with more forward pitch?

No, you need shorter span with more forward pitch in the thumb.

We know the pitch needs to go forward because one of the drillers put more reverse because you were gripping the ball and he knew that was the only way you could get out of it without "hurting" yourself.

The span is long, if you look at the picture where your fingers are just laying over the ball, the leading edge of the insert should be half way between the two knuckles, yours looks only a quarter of the way from the knuckle closest to the nail. Also in the other pictures you can see the hand is stretched some in order to get the thumb in the ball.

Go to the shop where the guy has been to the Ebonite training, Jeff Userey runs it and is one of the best drillers in bowling. I would feel confident in anyone that has been trained by him or the staff at Ebonite.

Your span is way too long. Who ever drilled that doesn't know what he/she is doing. You can tell if your span is correct by placing your thumb in the ball and laying your fingers across the holes. The leading edge (side closest to the thumb) of the finger hole should be no longer than half way between the first and second knuckle of the middle and ring finger without stretching your hand, it should be relaxed. It can be a little shorter than that, but not shorter than one quarter from the second knuckle.

If you already have a ball you can tell if your span is right by putting your hand in the ball and see if the fingernails are pressing the back of the holes, a properly fit ball will not have the fingers pressing into the back of the hole.

On my balls I can put my thumb in first and still be able to put my fingers in the ball, I don’t advocate doing this, but it is a good test to see if your span is too long.

Your thumb hole is way too big, I can see 1/2 of the hole with your thumb in it. This usually happens because you are bending the knuckle to hang onto the ball. If you put your thumb in the ball, it should be fairly tight with your thumb straight (it can be a touch lose to allow for tape/magic carpet).

At 4" span you should be at 1/4" forward to start out with, then keep going forward until your thumb catches slightly, then back off 1/16". I recommend going forward 1/4" at a time to save on drillings. Just make sure it is not you squeezing the ball before you give up on a thumb pitch and back off. Once you get the feel of allowing your thumb to relax in the hole you will be able to tell when you squeeze the ball or not.

Word of warning, you will throw the ball through the ceiling if you go to forward pitch and still bend the thumb, so let the ball fall off your hand or you will risk injuring yourself.

Picture to go along with what they've described


You also have a tremendous amount of bevel.

yeah, i've gone to the guy with Ebonite training and he's the one that put that much negative pitch in my hand. but i think he did it so i wouldn't put it through the roof like u said.

as for the span: if i put thumb in first then the fingers i can't quite get the fingers in all the way down to the crease. i guess just another verification that it's stretched.

do you guys recommend i slowly increase my forward pitch until i get used to it or just make the dive and go 1/4" forward?

thanks for all the help so far guys!

Most people put their fingers in first then their thumb. I don't think putting your thumb in first is a good indication of a poor fit. I know my fit is right. If I put my thumb in first and then attempt to put in my finger tips (as if for bowling), it just don't work. The only time we ask people to put their thumb in first is to lay their fingers across the finger holes as has been illustrated in several photos here. Not to actually grip the ball for actual bowling.

I'm not saying you did not get a poor fit to start, but you did mention that you used to squeeze and that the driller adjusted the pitch for your squeezing. Well it stands to reason that if you change your grip (squeezing) and delivery that you'd have to change your drill too. I think given the information at the time, the driller probably did the best they could for a first time drill.

Drilling is an imperfect science and drillers only have what they see to go on, plus the feedback from the bowler. If that feedback changes or the bowler changes then that makes a big difference in how you drill the ball. Say you had gone in there and it was drilled for a relaxed non squeezing grip. You'd have probably stuck in the ball or did stick in the ball. Then the bowler goes back to the shop and says..."Hey, my thumb hole is too small". Driller responds "you are gripping the ball, don't over grip the ball". Bowler goes back out tries again, still sticks, returns to the shop "its still sticking". So at that point the driller adjusts the thumb hole so that the bowler can get out of the ball, proper or not.

I suggest that you go back to the driller, tell him that you've learned to not overgrip the ball and now the thumb hole feels too lose and the span too long. At that point you may have to short plug the thumb and redrill it. If that doesn't solve the problem then a full plug of the thumb and adjusting it for pitch and span. Or you can just full plug the thumb overnight and skip one step.

Erin

That Quote is what I suggested for Yonkinator to do, not actually bowl like that. If you put your thumb in first and then point your fingers to the ball so they go straight down and there is no holes there, then the span is too long. If the holes are in the vacinity then the fit is not too far off. I have seen people do this and the holes are not within inches.

So what is the most common finger pitch: 3/8"? If you use power lifts, how much more forward pitch would be needed to compensate?

Power lifts come with 1/4" forward pitch built into them. Ovals have 0, not sure what the others are. Pitches may vary by manufacturer.

I have power lifts and I go 1/8th reverse with the fingers so I end up with 1/8th forward.

Lefty's post didn't come up I am just posting this to see if it makes it show up.

Actually, I want to know what is the most common pitch for the fingers? Or do the finger pitches always start out with 0? The Hoppe Chart says that 3/8" is commonly used with finger inserts, so I guess one would have to adjust the pitch 1/4" with the power lifts?

Around 0 is common, but there are several factors to finger pitch. Flexibility of the fingers is one, the span can also effect it or if a bowler has hand/finger issues.

What I have noticed by watching many bowlers over the years is that forward finger pitch makes you get out of the fingers later. If you are having problems hitting the ball on the up swing, then reversing the pitch to the point where the ball is coming off your hand when it is parallel to the lane would benefit you. How much that is is different from person to person, so you will have some trial and error.

It is best to video tape yourself from the side up at the foul line so you can see the ball come off your hand and land on the lane, and see if the ball goes up after it leaves your hand, or goes straight down to the lane. If the ball goes up slightly before it goes down, try backing off the forward pitch 1/8" at a time until it stops going up after it leaves your fingers.

hmm, i also feel as though i get almost no lift from my fingers. it's probably partly due to the incorrect drilling i have now but i'll ask the driller when i see him tomorrow about finger pitch.

No lift is usually a thumb issue, usually caused by you squeezing the thumb to the point where the fingers and thumb come out at the same time.

well guys had the ball redrilled. went to a different guy that a friend recommended who is also certified in drilling.

he measured me a tad to long on span and at 1/8" reverse thumb pitch. long story short is that he put a new slug in at 1/4" forward and WOW! WHAT A DIFFERENCE! he said the new forward pitch would make up for the to long of a span since my span was only off a little bit.

i tried throwing the ball and literally couldn't get it off my hand for about 20 minutes! after i figured out that in order to get it off my hand i had to squeeze with the base of my thumb i got out of the ball cleanly every time.

it's a totally different way than i'm used to and i made a huge jump in pitch in one night so i'm still not confident on the drilling but i'll practice with it for a couple weeks to see how it goes.

question though: i do have a pain at the base of my thumb when i throw it(right at the bone at the base) and once my thumb actually fell asleep. seems to me that i have bevel problem on the hole. sound right or is that normal? may be i just need practice to get used to it.

thanks for the help guys! i'll keep posting on the never ending battle that is my thumb!

another thing i noticed is that the span is still too short. hmm, i'll have to make another trip up there and see if he can shorten it up.

Do you mean the span is still too long? If so that is probably what is causing the base of your thumb to press so hard that it is pinching the nerve there. Get this fixed immediately, forward pitch with too long of a span can cause serious hand injuries. That is why I tell everyone to make sure their span is right before venturing forward with the thumb pitch.

yes, i mis-spoke. the span is still too long. it's still right at 4" which is about 1/4" to long. i can get out of the ball easily without pain in my thumb if i concentrate on trying to press my finger nails into the to the top of the finger grips. this allows my thumb to be able to pull out of the hole straight and not bent.

i'll prolly try bowling with it a little bit and then end up going back to the Pro Shop to lengthen it again.

yes, i mis-spoke. the span is still too long. it's still right at 4" which is about 1/4" to long. i can get out of the ball easily without pain in my thumb if i concentrate on trying to press my finger nails into the to the top of the finger grips. this allows my thumb to be able to pull out of the hole straight and not bent.

i'll prolly try bowling with it a little bit and then end up going back to the Pro Shop to lengthen it again.

Does this mean that moving the thumb pitch forward or reverse will not have any affect on the span? I was considering moving forward a bit, but was concerned about a span change.

I second getting this fixed. You're going to end up hurting yourself if your span is to long. There's also a nerve at the base of your thumb that you can end up aggravating and it will send a shooting pain up your arm when you swing the ball. Just get it fixed.

You need to shorten the span 1/8" for every 3/8" of forward pitch or lengthen the span 1/8" for every 3/8" of reverse pitch.

If you are at 0 pitch and the edge of the finger hole is right at 1/2 way between the first and second knuckles with the thumb in the hole and the fingers laid relaxed across the holes as I have described repeatedly here, and you want to go to 3/8" forward then you will want to shorten the span 1/8" to allow the thumb to clear the edge of the hole.

yes, i noticed this problem. if i put my thumb in first and don't put my fingers in all the way my thumb would come right out but if i put my fingers in first and then my thumb the edge of the hole is to far away and almost forces me to knuckle the ball to get it out of the hole almost making it impossible for anyone to get it off the hand!

span is so [censored] important and i didn't really realize until i went with this forward pitch. anyway, the ball will hopefully be fixed before leagues start up as currently it's my only ball!

update:

got the ball drilled with a shorter span. went from about 3 (15/16)" span to 3 3/4" span and it feels better. i feel absolutely nothing on the thumb now which is good. i can't quite relax my hand or else it seems like it wants to fall off yet i'm not sure i can make it tight enough or else it will stick. could just be the way i'm releasing it but it feels as though an even shorter span may help a little.

here are some pics to show you guys.

you'll notice the thumb is still doing that. i can tighten it up but i don't think the ball will come off my hand if i do. i do notice that if i don't put my fingers all the way in the inserts it comes off the hand much cleaner which is why i think maybe a little less span would help even more.

also, i'm kinda confused because i can throw the ball a few ways and get it off my hand but i'm not sure which is correct or should i say best. one way is to keep the thumb straight but grip the fingers. the other i do is keep the thumb straight but try to straighten the fingers against the top of the thumb grips and the other is to keep the fingers straight and do nothing with the fingers.

you'll notice the thumb is still doing that. i can tighten it up but i don't think the ball will come off my hand if i do. i do notice that if i don't put my fingers all the way in the inserts it comes off the hand much cleaner which is why i think maybe a little less span would help even more.

also, i'm kinda confused because i can throw the ball a few ways and get it off my hand but i'm not sure which is correct or should i say best. one way is to keep the thumb straight but grip the fingers. the other i do is keep the thumb straight but try to straighten the fingers against the top of the thumb grips and the other is to keep the fingers straight and do nothing with the fingers.

went bowling with it again. if i leave the thumb loose it comes off ok but falls most times. if i tighten it up i stick in the the thing and it flies half way down the lane.

right now i've had more success putting the tape on the side of the thumb hole nearest to the fingers. it seems to help.

Your thumb also seems like it still has a lot of bevel. That could also be contributing to you loosing the ball.

i'm honestly just confused. i bowled 9 games with it tonight and i don't feel confident with it at all. at any time it could fall out of my hand or just plain stick or go for a ride in the air.

i hate to keep spending money on redrilling this thumb if it may not even be the problem. i even the think the driller is getting tired of me!

everyone tells me to get out of a ball with a lot of forward pitch you have to keep the thumb straight but as i put my hand in it and slowly take the thumb out i can feel that it has to be bent for it to come out.

i just can't seem to get it tight enough. to much tape it and never comes off the hand. to little tape and it drops. for awhile today i was able to completely relax the hand in my release and it came off but dropped everytime. as soon as i put more tape in it, the thumb hole still wasn't tight enough to keep my thumb from slipping but it would hang anyway (and i know i wasn't grabbing at the end)

i'm just venting here. with times like this it makes me rethink even getting interested in the sport of bowling. that's why i love horseshoes so much. it's mostly about you and your release and not nearly as picky as bowling is about equipment fitment.

When you put your thumb in the ball, arch it backwards so that the thumb nail is touching the back of the hole. Keep it that way for the entire swing.

And if you're using white tape, that always goes in the front of the hole (closest to the fingers). It will make you hang if you put it in the back.

i do arch the thumb nail to touch the back of the ball. i also have to touch my nails in the finger holes too. as soon as i do that it comes right out but i can still never get the thumb hole tight enough. i put ton of tape in it and it always slides off a little down to the knuckle.

in fact guys, the reason i think the span is still stretched is because i don't squeeze at all. i actually do the opposite. in order to get the ball of my hand i have to purposely try to open up my hand while it's in the ball.

i knew my hand was small but wow! i'm already at 3.75" span and looks like i need to go smaller yet by about a 1/4". 3.5" span. that will probably require me to go even more forward pitch! it's a never ending process. if it only didn't cost me money to do so!

Hi yOnK,

The one thing I haven't seen mentioned in reading this thread is whether or not you keep your wrist straight or slightly cupped through your entire swing? I have gotten my ball to fit pretty well now (with 1/4" forward in the thumb - thanks CoachJim!) but I still feel like the ball is going to slip off my hand of I let my wrist break during the swing. When I keep my wrist slightly cupped I can feel the ball grab my thumb in the swing and it still comes off clean at the release. Also, my best combination seems to be fingers squeezing slightly while pressing my thumbnail into the back of the hole. This keeps me from gripping with my thumb while still giving me a secure feeling of having the ball on my hand. Not sure if that will help or not, just a thought I had.

actually everyone tells me that i have an overly strong wrist. i keep it cupped all the way through. kind of the way chris barnes has it when he first releases the ball. i've been working on not cupping it so much and just keeping it straight. it doesn't matter how cuppied it is it still slides of my thumb until it hits the knuckle.

also, i can't squeeze with the fingers at all or it will stick. i think this is because my span is about 1/4" to long so when i squeeze it it pulls my thumb closer to the front of the thumb hole and doesn't allow my thumb to exit when completely straight.

anybody have opinions on my span from my updated pics? looks to me about 1/4" to long.

btw tenpin. have you tried even more forward pitch? maybe it would stay on your thumb cleaner if you did. what is your span?

I went up to 3/8" forward a couple weeks ago but it didn't feel right. 1/4" stays on pretty well and I have seen some good results from that pitch. Now that I am comfortable at 1/4" I have been thinking about trying 3/8" again with one of my less used balls.

yOnKiNaToR - is your wrist still cupped when you release the ball? If so, that's probably why you're hanging up. You're not going to be able to get out of the ball with your wrist cupped.

lefty, i definitely relax the wrist before release. if i break the wrist (to shoot straight at spares) is when i hang. weird eh? when i break the wrist all the weight is on the thumb and it hangs on the knuckle (even with a straight thumb).

like i said before, anybody agree with me that the span is still to long and that i can't get the thumb tight enough?

lefty, i definitely relax the wrist before release. if i break the wrist (to shoot straight at spares) is when i hang. weird eh? when i break the wrist all the weight is on the thumb and it hangs on the knuckle (even with a straight thumb).

like i said before, anybody agree with me that the span is still to long and that i can't get the thumb tight enough?

update guys: the span was shortenend a little (although i don't feel as though it does) and there was some reverse finger pitch put in.

span is 3 11/16 on both fingers
thumb pitch is 1/4" forward no lateral
finger pitch was put slightly away (not sure of number)


here are some updated pics:







i tried bowling with it tonight and i could not get out of the ball cleanly everytime. sometimes it would come out other times it would fly half way down the lane (even when not gripping the ball at all with a straight thumb). i noticed that it rubbed on the base of my thumb right below the front bevel of the thumb.

later on after i got home from bowling league, the worst i've bowled in a while (420 series :() i was kinda upset. so i fudged with the ball some more and released it a bunch of times against the couch using different methods of taping. as soon as i snugged up with 5 pieces only on the front of the thumb hole it came out good everytime! (even though i know taping this side of the hole lengthens the span and increases the forward pitch) . i can't figure it out. i can only chalk it up to be that the tape prevented my thumb from rubbing the front part of the thumb hole.

i still can't get it tight enough to prevent it from slipping so i'm gonna try some more forward thumb pitch and i believe even shorter span. although my driller says i shouldn't go any shorter.

what do u guys think? i'm gonna ask the driller about this too just like a second opinion on the ever evolving setup.

How come the thumb hole is round? Drill bits are round, thumbs are oval (except in very few exceptions, maybe like 2%). 98% of people need an oval thumb hole.

Which leads me to believe that the amount of white tape is there to help make up for the fact that you don't have an oval thumb hole. Plus when you put that much tape in a thumb hole it adds to the reverse pitch. Plus the hole is just too big (that's the accomodate the width of our oval thumb). We only use 1/4" forward on little kids with tiny spans. I wouldn't go any more forward. But you probably need an oval thumb hole, and since this one was NOT ovaled I'd go to another Pro Shop. The lack of an oval thumb hole leads me to believe that the driller doesn't know how to oval a thumb hole and get a decent thumb fit. Forcing the driller to do something they don't know how to do will not help you. So I'd go to another shop.

Erin

Why wouldn't you go 1/4 forward on him? His span is really very short, just over 3 1/2". I have my ball fall off in my backswing at 1/4" forward, and my span is 4 1/4"...

Depends but there are standard pitches I'd start there. If his thumb is wide and short and dry then he may need more forward pitch, but IMO 1/4 is a lot. And most people squeeze the ball. I think the main problem here is the round thumb hole.

Erin

the reason i think i need more forward pitch is that no matter how tight i make the thumb with tape it never stays completely on my thumb. it always slips a little in the swing (slips until it locks on the thumb).

as for the ovaling, i'll talk to my driller about that. how does the span look in the pics?

The line on your fingers is matching up with the edge of the drilled holes - it should be lined up with the edge of the insert.

Where in PA are you?

yeah cgeorg, your'e right on the span. it looks to be a little to long still. my driller was like "if i shorten it much more it'll be drilled conventional haha". and i was thinking to myself "i thought that was what fingertip is supposed to be?"

anyway, it looks as though the correct span for me will be right on 3.5"

i'm located in northeast pa in the cooouunnntry. y u ask george?

I was just wondering if I knew your driller, or where you bowl. I'm near Pittsburgh though, so that's quite unlikely!