Sorry if it's a bad angle. My dad was the one taping, it was league, and I didn't think of having him get right behind me or on the other side.

Anyways, I'd like your opinions on these issues the most: Timing, Balance Arm, Trail Leg, Balance at the Line, Arm Swing. I'm aware there's issues with most if not all of these so lay it on me. Anything else you can see would be nice too.

You have a nice approach with a good tempo and nice swing as far as I could see from this video. Different angles might help. You fell off balance on the second shot, but it looks like that is not the norm since you didn't fall off balance the first or last shot. I think all you need to do is practice.

I would have to agree with Jim. It looks much better than your previous approaches you've posted here. You still might be muscling it a little, I can't tell because of the angle. It cuts off the beginning part of your swing. And as for the ten pin leaves, try moving a half board to the right to carry it.

I would either use a different ball or a different line that what you're playing. The ball was flat coming in to the pocket and I wouldn't be surprised if you got tapped a lot. You're going to want the ball to finish behind the 5 pin when it falls off the back of the pin deck. If you look where your ball is finishing, it's behind the 9 pin.

I was actually muscling it quite a bit. And I'm surprised you guys didn't point out my spine tilt and my foot steps. The tilt is too much in my opinion, and my second and third steps are out of sync with the others. Fortunately, I feel like I addressed these issues as well as my armswing in practice today and it feels much better. My timing felt right and I was able to keep my balance most of the time, with what felt like a better finishing position as well.

As for the line I was playing, those shots were all misses to the right except the last shot. I shot 215 and 258 with that ball. 178 with a different ball that I was using the first game. I switched to this ball because of over/under on the other ball. Anyways, by saying the ball finished in the 9 position are you implying that the ball deflected too much?

Yes on those shots that you showed, the ball deflected to much.

I said this previously, but the computer that I was working on kept acting up, but it went a little something like this:

Honestly, in the first part of the approach it looks like the you are letting the ball swing you some. I have nothing against a shoulder tilt or drop, but it looks like if the ball were a little heavier it would pull you to the ground. I would suggest a lighter ball (last restort), a free armswing, learn how to hold the weight of the ball in your left and some practice with the over-under technique.

The backswing is muscled because your body is trying to compensate for the fact that the ball is pulling you down some. It's like you're a football punter trying to drop the ball and then your arm takes over because there is almost no way gravity can help you out anymore (If that makes any sense, it sounded good in my head). And because you're muscling and controlling the backswing it's throwing of your footwork and timing which isn't allowing you to comfortably balance and causing you to fall off balance.

As for the spine tilt it is a combination of letting the ball pull you down and you muscling it. To correct the spinal tilt you could also try to walk with your back straight and bend at the knees. Kind of like the old escalator behind the couch gag.

I think you should also try to speed up your approach a little as well as stay up on it. You look like you are sinking too low and that could be throwing off your armswing or your release point.

Take these suggestions with a grain of salt. Evertime I see something on the computer from youtube, it looks slower than it probably is. I've been told that countless times.

All I can see. Thats you're pulling up at the finish of your shot. You should stay down and follow thru. Thats muscling. Just relax as you swing thru. That should solve the issue.

Thanks for the comments guys. To be honest, I was having quite an off physical game that day. Anyways, I practiced yesterday and did a little more video taping. The one thing I didn't fix from watching the videos is the excessive spine tilt. I feel like I freed up my armswing considerably, and I also sped up my approach. Then after I stopped video taping, I was told by my friend and driller that I was bending more at the knees and less at the waist, which is what I was going for. As a result I felt better leverage. I might be a little off still because I'm not still not that accurate, but that just may be a lack of lining up correctly.

I bowl league tonight so maybe I can get some video in and upload another.

Sounds like you're on the right Track. Good luck tonight, and we'll be awaiting the video update.

I didn't get the chance to video it since the battery died lol. Unfortunately I was a little too worried about score it execute the way on wanted on a regular basis. I still feel like my spine tilt is too much, but it definitely does not feel as bad as in the video I posted. My leverage was still good for the most part and I think I had good knee bend.

There's still something that's making my accuracy fail too much, as I remember missing at least 6 makeable spares(8 if you count baby splits and washouts). It's not just on spares, but I try not to hook it on spares which could be causing slight uncomfortability on them. Maybe inaccuracy on strike balls is actually the opposite and what I'm doing is turning too much instead of letting it roll off my hand(as you can see in the video that might be what's causing me to follow through in front of my face and do a circular motion). However it seems just having the ball roll off your hand would kill versatility as it doesn't seem to let you vary your release.

Being effected by the score happens. It's really tough to try something new when the game is on the line and you're paying to play. It's extremely hard to ignore the score when you are trying to fix things or try new things.

As for the accuracy issue with the spares it could be two things. The first is that you aren't comfortable throwing a hooking ball straight (I'm assuming). Also do you use a different finger position when you throw them straight? As for turning the ball too much you could try to change the finger position you have to get less reaction out of the ball. Or what might be even better would be to try to tuck the thumb that was in your ball behind your ear on that side. You don't have to do that exactly, but it can help you visualize what needs to be done so that you don't over-rotate the ball.

You set up variations in release by changing your hand position - the ball still rolls off your hand, but your hand is in a different position, which causes the ball to roll differently. Changing index and ring finger positions, the amount of cup and cocking of the hand, and the amount of rotation around the ball all affect how it rolls off your hand.


This will cause you to hit up on the ball. You want to finish with the hand out on front of you, not up by your ear.

I throw plastic at my spares. But I don't like throwing it like I normally would because I don't want it to hook. I try to put pretty much no rotation on it but I'm still getting like 15 degree axis rotation which isn't much but it must be something I'm doing. That's beside the point though, my point is maybe I'm just uncomfortable that way. My finger position on my spares(and most of the time on my strikes) is with my pinky and index fingers both spread out.

As for over-turning, I was referring to my strike shots. What I was saying was that maybe I'm subconciously trying to put revs or rotation(to get it down the lane) on the ball that it's messing up my accuracy. cgeorg you said you want your follow through out in front of you(and off to the side, not in front of your face). I'll tell you, some of my best shots in terms of feel have come from this type of position. I hardly ever get it though because as you can see in the video my arm goes in front of my face first.

Here's another video from a couple days ago. Let me know if there's anything better or worse.

I would again suggest practicing the over/under technique. There is an imaginery bar in front of you 5-6 inches above where the ball is. You have to push the ball over it. That's the first part. The second part cones when you release it, and it looks like you have this part down pretty good. Regardless, there is a bar 11-12 inches of the floor and you have to release the ball underneath it.

Next think of gravity as the engine with which to power the ball and your hand(and your arm) are passengers along for the ride who don't get to do anything until the release.

I would keep working on sinking at the knees to correct the spinal tilt. And don't let the ball pull you down or that is at least what it looks like. Because at the line it looks like you have to stand up to get the ball out on the lane and that could account for some of your inconsistantcy.

5-6 inches is an exaggeration. I'm thinking more like 2-3 inches, since you're only supposed to do a tiny circular motion with the push away. Lifting the ball 5 inches in the push away I may as well start the ball at shoulder height and drop it in the swing. That is, unles you actually meant to push *out* 5 inches. I could understand that a bit better.

I will continue to work on less spine tilt. I'm already bending about as much with the knees as physically possible without straining myself to do it. I will also work on controlling the armswing less and just let it flow. Same with my feet.

You're still controlling the fall of the ball after the pushaway. Put the entire weight of the ball into your left hand and use that to push the ball away. Remove your left hand and let the ball fall. Do not use any of the muscles in your right arm to slow the fall of the ball down. Just let the ball fall and swing.

When you start out controlling the ball like this, you really can't turn it off and stop muscling it later in the swing.

Armswing is still controlled. A bit much tilt, and you're really creeping to the line. I think you have to control the armswing to slow it down to match your steps. Is that the speed you walk down the street? I doubt it. Practice the pushaway lefty described somewhere away from the lanes - just push the ball out with the left hand, and let it fall. You will get a little more stability if you do this in a finish position, or with your right foot just in front of your left (starting position for 1 step drill).

Compliment sandwich, the release looks better. You seem to be staying behind it more, and getting less tilt. You are also playing a better part of the lane, and your swing path looks more in line to me.

Other piece of bread, you are hitting up on it a bit. Once you get the free swing down, the extra speed will pull the ball off your hand, giving you the revs you get now from hitting up, so go ahead and get rid of the hit now.

No 4-6 inches above the ball's starting position and you have to push the ball over it. It gets the arm straight disengaes the arm muscles and allows gravity to be the power behind the ball. And you're supposed to use the non swing arm and hand to shoulder the weight of the ball and push it over the bar.

Correct the spinal tilt with your legs as much as is comfortable and then rest go.

Personally, I think a free armseing will correct a lot of your problems, like muscling the ball and the spinal tilt.

Thanks guys, I will definitely try to let gravity be my force. That said, I will most likely need to have faster feet, which is what I'm trying to accomplish anyways. Like you said cgeorg that is not my normal walking pace. I tried speeding it up a bit in that video but I think due to the controlled swing I keep it slow. I agree once I get the free swing down I will have solved a majority of my problems.

DemoMan that makes some sense to get some speed on the ball but that seems like an awful lot to push the ball up. I will practice something similar but it most likely won't be that much. I'm more comfortable raising it like 2 inches and maybe pushing out more.

cgeorg, you said was was staying behind the ball more and getting less tilt. How would I get more tilt? I'm trying to lower my Track if possible because as it stands I can't throw a Rico Layout on anything I throw. I Track about 1" from my thumb and just a hair less from my fingers. I'm trying to [censored] my wrist but it turns out I'm just behind the ball.

Got some more video. On a physical level a few of these felt great to me, others not as good. I realize this probably isn't a lot of improvement but I feel a bit more free in the armswing with some of them. I'm having a really hard time making it *look* like a free armswing on video. And I think the spine tilt is about as good as it's going to get(I already feel pretty straight), I just need to keep it consistent. And I think once the armswing gets less forced I will stop popping up after releasing the ball. Thoughts?



If it doesn't work yet it's just processing and should be working shortly.

You still look like you're trying to ease the ball into the down swing instead of just letting the ball and your arm fall. This isn't something that you're going to gradually get. Once you get it, you'll get it. Once you let you arm go completely limp and just let the ball fall like it fell off of a table, you'll understand what we're talking about.

I get what you're saying. I just don't understand why I'm unable to do it ;(. I really am trying. I think that's really the only thing that's hurting me. Anything else that's wrong in my game right now is caused by that one issue. Agree or disagree?

It feels and looks to me that I get the ball started slightly sooner and my feet are a little better. I like it.

If I had to hazard a guess as to why you're having a hard time, it's that you're trying to still execute what you think is a good shot. My advice is to get up there and forget about everything else. Completely relax your right arm, push away with your left, then let the ball go and expect that it's going to plummet to the floor. For a few shots at least, forget about everything else. Don't worry about hitting your mark... just think about letting the ball swing on it's own and don't care if the ball goes in the gutter.

Amature, you are following the ball down with your upper body this is cutting your swing off and forcing you to swing the ball with your upper body instead of letting it swing from your shoulder.

Try letting the ball drop into the swing and not bend your upper body until after the ball passes your right leg on the back swing.

Lefty, that's probably it, or at least part of the reason. In warm ups for league today I started out doing just what you said and I noticed a bit of a difference. For the most part I think I let the ball swing on its own but some shots I pulled through. I took video too to see if I was doing it right. Most of my shots are the same as before but I've uploaded a video of what I thought my best shots were.

CoachJim, I'm aware that the bending I'm doing most of the time is no good. However, I thought some spine tilt was okay but I didn't know that *when* you tilt was very important. It's kinda hard to picture bending only after the ball has passed my right leg. But I'm more curious what you mean by it cuts my swing off to bend the way I am and how it would be better to bend after the bottom of the backswing. It seems that most of the pros just have a little lean forward during there approach but they stay in that position while I get way down there. I idolize Tony Reyes' approach a lot and would love to have something very similar to it.



I don't know about anyone else, but to me these shots look a bit more free in the swing than the other videos.

You should push it up because fromt he video that i just saw, I guess the newest one you have. If you look at it from the side, you don't push the ball straight out on the pushaway. You actually push the ball down. Your arm gets straight on the backswing and not before in the pushaway (probably why you are having troubel with a free armswing). This could and probably is the cause of the accessive spinal tilt that you are talking about as well as why you are muscling the ball. From the start of your entire approach is geared towards the floor and not out on the lanes or your target in front of you. You probably have trouble with the free armswing because you don't realize you're muscling the ball from the start. You don't let a chance for gravity to take over and allow the weight to transfer onto the shoulder, you force it right from the beginning.

If I'm wrong and completely off base someone else can correct me, but I'm saying what it is I saw and the possible

Lefty's right (sorry for that). I think Aristotle said, "If you wish to improve then think yourself foolish and stupid." If not saying your stupid or foolish, you just need to stop trying to force an old method and something new together. Most times they backfire and do not work well together.

You actually might be right DemoMan. I disagree that I'm pushing down, but you make a good point that I don't really give gravity a chance to do much. I used to do a full extension of my arm in my pushaway, but I stopped because I felt really weird in my footwork and didn't have good balance. I'm thinking about giving it another try though, because I've improved my timing and mechanics altogether since I stopped. What do you think?

That looks much better.. and I wouldn't go back to pushing the ball all the way out in front of you. I'd bet your tilting would get worse, not better. Your push away looks similar to what's called the sliding hinge and I don't think there's a real issue with it.

Thanks Lefty. I thought it looked a little better, but not that much. In terms of feel I don't think I can get it much better than that, but maybe I'm wrong. I'll keep working at it. As for my pushaway it's definitely a possibility pushing it further out is going to make my spine tilt worse, but I think it's a way to free up my arm swing. Not bending so much will take a bit of work, I'm even kinda practicing my approach here at home to get a feel for it.

DO NOT EXTEND THE BALL OUT IN FRONT OF YOU! If you do so, your feet will get fast trying to catch up with the ball. Name me one pro that launches the ball out in front of themselves and chases after it?

If you want to bowl like Tony Reyes, then set up in the position you want to be in and maintain that position all the way through the shot to the foul line like he does. To me you would be better off bowling like you instead of like Tony Reyes.

What I mean by cutting the swing off, is if you bend as the ball goes down, your back swing will not make it to shoulder high, unless you pull it back, but if you wait on the down swing then bend you will not have to pull the back swing back and it will not be blocked off by your shoulder muscles. You need to let the ball swing from your shoulder first, then add the spine tilt, or add the spine tilt before you start your approach and just maintain it the whole way and let the ball swing from your shoulder without helping it back.

I know this one....

I know a pro that exstends his arm before the backswing, Rhino Page.

But I can see what you mean Coach about it cutting off your swing. I guess I've been doing something that isn't really the norm. All the pros that I've watched with the exception of Page, all have a similar pushaway and backswing to what Amateur has.

I just learned to get the swing arm fully exstended and let gravity take control. I guess this would explain why my feet feel and are a bit faster.

My question is how are you going to practice the over/under technique with this sliding hinge, I guess it is called? If the over/under technique is the best way to practice a free swing (the best way I know) how would you accomadate it with the sliding hinge?

Well, there are a few that extend their arm, but the point is that they don't chase the ball. Amateur is chasing after the ball instead of letting it swing from his shoulder. You can see the ball is actually pulling him forward at the end of the pushaway. Whether you extend your arm fully or not, the ball shouldn't be pulling you off balance. So either the ball is too heavy for him, or there is too much force being put forward in the pushaway.

Here is a good article to help:
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinski_push_btm_apr_2007.pdf

Here is a video that may help also:
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/videos/Bowling_Knowledge_free_swing_drill.wmv

As CoachJim said, extending all the way will cause you more problems. The ball will essentually pull you over more than you're already tilting forward and then your feet will get fast because you're leaning. If you extend all the way out, you'll have to use a lot of upper body strength to counter act it and that's probably not something else you want to have to add to your game have have to maintain. The less things you have to worry about, the easer it is.

Well I guess I'll have to work on changing that. And I found the cause of my fast feet I guess. Practice time, then.

In that video my feet felt faster than normal but when watching the video, they really aren't much faster. I don't think I'm chasing the ball, but as Coach said that's what you would be doing if you extend your arm in front of you. When I used to extend my arm, I didn't really notice the chasing, but my feet were off entirely anyways.

I will see if that drill DD posted helps me too.

Coach, I couldn't bowl like Tony Reyes if I tried a million times. I would just like to have the same fundamentals as him. Like you said he gets in a position in the stance, which seems to have him tilted slightly forward, and he stays in that position through the whole approach. That's what I would like to do. When I'm in my stance(althought it shows my right shoulder is lower than my left), I feel quite upright which makes my sudden tilt seem drastic. Perhaps a little tilt to start with and focusing on staying in that position will help with that.

Amateur - go to the 10 second point of your last video and look at how you're set up. Are you standing straight up or are you tilted? You look pretty tilted to me. You then let your upper body fall forward so that your chest is almost completely parallel with the floor. You're not just tiling a little. You're bent completely over.

I see that Lefty. I'm tilted a decent amount to start with. After I start the swing it's just horrible. I can tell for sure since it's only a behind view, but I believe my last shot was less tilted even during the swing, but still too much. Anyways, the position I start in, is that much tilt viable during the whole approach or is that even too much?

Does anyone have drills for staying more upright during the swing? It seems that for the life of me I can stop doing bending so much. I know someone mentioned imagine balancing a book on your head but that's not going to work. I was kinda wondering if there's anything you can actually wear for this kind of thing?

Funny you should mention wearing something, Susie Minshew taught me to have a bowler that is doing this wear a baseball cap with the rim pulled down just above the bowler's eyes, if the bowler bends forward too much then he/she can't see where they are going and this causes the old self preservation instinct to kick in and work for you for a change by having you keep more up right. Try the baseball cap and let me know how it goes.

Lol that's a good one. I was thinking more along the lines of something that would physically disable me from bending past a certain point. I thought of a weight belt but that wouldn't quite do it I don't think. Something like that though. Just to make sure I understand what you're saying though, you're talking about a regular hat right? And, with the cap rim low enough, it would make it so you can't see the lane anymore(if you bend too much)? I just may try that.

Worse comes to worse, you at least learn how to bowl blind. I hope it works out for you.

So I tried the hat a little bit today. I don't think it was too successful but I do think I improved on the spine tilt. When I wore the hate, I lost sight of the arrows for just a split second. In any case, I felt that I was not bending as much as I normally do and the two people I was bowling with agreed. So it seems that it's not much more than how much I'm bending in my stance. However, I'd like to get it to the point where I bend no more than I do in my stance. I feel that I'm close, next time I'll have to take a video to actually see it.

The problem now is, I feel like it's harder to stay balanced. Sometimes my trail leg goes completely left and I feel very open at the line with my hips. Sometimes this causes the ball to go too far to the right, sometimes it doesn't. So I figured I'd try sitting into the shot a little more. It