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#60097 - 06/26/08 09:56 AM Re: Why am I better off for bowling in a PBAX League [Re: desertdog71]
Tim Gerard Offline
Legend

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 1437
A/S/L: m/ Michigan
I am bowling on a PBAX league for the third year in a row, this year a different house than the previous two. I have averaged at least 20 pins below my winter league average. I expected that I would struggle initially, but get a little better as time went on. Last year I was in a major funk the whole first half of the winter league, and I am coming to realize that the PBA league could be the reason.

This summers PBAX has got my mechanics all out of whack, and I am struggling mightly. I am trying to do to much, and I believe this has caused some problems. Dennis and even my coach pointed out that my problems could be rooted with this PBAX. We start a new pattern tonight, the Viper and I am going to stick it out for this year, but I am going to rethink this in the future.
Funny, I really thought that I was helping my game by joining a PBA league when just the opposite may be true.

Now that I am aware that I am forcing the issue at times, maybe I can just relax and have better results. I'll find out tonight.
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#60098 - 06/26/08 10:05 AM Re: Why am I better off for bowling in a PBAX League [Re: desertdog71]
infernocal Offline
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Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 2070
A/S/L: 28/m/maryland
The PBAX leagues are a gimmick to try to get more people to bowl Sport leagues, which is all a PBAX is. They just happen to be the shots the Pros bowl on, and some Sport Shots are harder. They will not magically make you better or versatile. These leagues are not for everyone, or most of the average Joe Bowlers. As its been stated these leagues bring out major flaws in the game and without professional help as in coaching will do nothing for you. Then factor in the fact most of these leagues aren't using the real patterns but something the center thinks will play like the real patterns.
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#60099 - 06/26/08 10:12 AM Re: Why am I better off for bowling in a PBAX League [Re: infernocal]
Dennis Michael Offline
Legend

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 3355
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Cal, maybe I am naive, but aren't the PBA patterns defined by the amount of oil in units? The forward and reverse application, by boards and length? And the buff out? And, doesn't the lane have to tape the actual oil spread and submit it to the USBC to confirm they actually put that pattern down?

So, how is it materially different?
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#60103 - 06/26/08 10:37 AM Re: Why am I better off for bowling in a PBAX League [Re: Dennis Michael]
Lefty Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 1867
A/S/L: 36 / M / Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
Cal, maybe I am naive, but aren't the PBA patterns defined by the amount of oil in units? The forward and reverse application, by boards and length? And the buff out? And, doesn't the lane have to tape the actual oil spread and submit it to the USBC to confirm they actually put that pattern down?

So, how is it materially different?


They don't have to confirm that it's a PBA pattern. They just have to confirm it's sport compliant.

As I've said many times now, you're not going to be able to put down the same exact thing that the pro's bowl on. Heck, they don't have the same shot week to week with the same exact pattern and the only thing that's changing is the house they bowl in. Now add to the different houses and lane surfaces the fact that all the centers that are running these leagues aren't using the same oilers or oil, you'll never see the same thing.

They even intentionally tweak the shot on tour from week to week.

To me, the whole topic of getting exactly what the pros get is a distraction. The important thing is that you're bowling on a sport compliant shot that takes away the big bumper people have. The pattern will not play the same in different houses. In some houses they will be somewhat easy, and it others they will be much more difficult. That's just part of the game. Everyone has to bowl on the same same condition, so sack up figure out how to do better than the next guy.

EDIT: The last comment wasn't directed to anyone in particular. It's just my attitude about bowling on any condition. If I average 160 and that's better than anyone else who's bowling, I did pretty good. If I average 230 and I'm last, I didn't bowl good enough.


Edited by Lefty (06/26/08 10:39 AM)

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#60106 - 06/26/08 11:01 AM Re: Why am I better off for bowling in a PBAX Lea [Re: Lefty]
Dennis Michael Offline
Legend

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 3355
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Originally Posted By: Lefty
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
Cal, maybe I am naive, but aren't the PBA patterns defined by the amount of oil in units? The forward and reverse application, by boards and length? And the buff out? And, doesn't the lane have to tape the actual oil spread and submit it to the USBC to confirm they actually put that pattern down?

So, how is it materially different?


They don't have to confirm that it's a PBA pattern. They just have to confirm it's sport compliant.


Well, this is different to what the laneman tells me. In fact, he has told us that he sometimes has to spend extra time to match the lane machine spread to the specific pattern. I could agree that there could be variation on different lane surfaces. But, he says the spread and amount is pretty specific.

I agree that all patterns of this type are lumped under a Sport category. But, why would they call it a cheetah if it wasn't a cheetah?

Before each bowling night, the laneman and house pro would describe the pattern laid down, and how to address it. The laneman would also show us the tape that was to be submitted. I can't read that, but have no reason to doubt him.
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#60107 - 06/26/08 11:09 AM Re: Why am I better off for bowling in a PBAX Lea [Re: Dennis Michael]
Lefty Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 1867
A/S/L: 36 / M / Rochester, NY
They get a program from the USBC to put into their machine and then they oil the lane. This program may or may not come out as a 3:1 ratio with their machine. They may have to tweak it to make is sport compliant. They may even choose to tweak it to better match what the USBC tells them it should look like.

There is however no requirement to match that specific patterns graph. The only thing that gets checked when they submit the tapes is that it's sport compliant.

And again, from center to center the PBA itself will not have the same pattern graph identical in different centers. They will intentionally change them some times in order to compensate for a characteristic of the lanes they're on.

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#60108 - 06/26/08 11:11 AM Re: Why am I better off for bowling in a PBAX League [Re: Lefty]
infernocal Offline
Legend

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 2070
A/S/L: 28/m/maryland
Dennis, not all of the PBA leagues are sport compliant or sport sanctioned so doing the tapes don't matter. All the tapes really do is to show its a sport compliant shot within the ratio, not what the exact pattern is.

Lefty, the topic of getting exactly what the pros is getting isn't a distraction. If your are bowling in a league that is advertised as a PBA Experience league where you are suppose to be bowling on the patterns the Pros use. This is the attraction to a PBAX league and why many average Joe Bowlers do these leagues. Its not necessarily to do better than the others in the league but to experience the Pro Patterns, which is why these tend to be summer leagues or short session leagues. If they aren't getting the basic pattern program that gets tweaked on the Tour to play similar at the different houses on Tour then don't advertise as being a PBAX league but rather a tough shot league. Yes, they may play differently in different houses and yes what you get at the the league level will be different but the centers should at least attempt to layout the correct pattern and not make up their version of the pattern. Now if its advertised as tough shot leagues its a different story.
_________________________
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Career
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2008-2009 Winter Season
HG:277
HS:673

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#60127 - 06/26/08 01:42 PM Re: Why am I better off for bowling in a PBAX League [Re: infernocal]
Lefty Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 1867
A/S/L: 36 / M / Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: infernocal

Lefty, the topic of getting exactly what the pros is getting isn't a distraction. If your are bowling in a league that is advertised as a PBA Experience league where you are suppose to be bowling on the patterns the Pros use. This is the attraction to a PBAX league and why many average Joe Bowlers do these leagues.


You are bowling on the pattern, but it is highly unlikely that the pattern put into your houses machine using the oil your house uses on the lane surface at your house will play the same way it does at any particular tour stop.

Quote:

Its not necessarily to do better than the others in the league but to experience the Pro Patterns, which is why these tend to be summer leagues or short session leagues. If they aren't getting the basic pattern program that gets tweaked on the Tour to play similar at the different houses on Tour then don't advertise as being a PBAX league but rather a tough shot league. Yes, they may play differently in different houses and yes what you get at the the league level will be different but the centers should at least attempt to layout the correct pattern and not make up their version of the pattern. Now if its advertised as tough shot leagues its a different story.


Also, if you aren't sanctioning as sport, you are not a PBAX league. PBAX leagues have to be sanctioned sport. I also don't think they're allowed to advertise as a PBAX league unless they do sanction sport.

Even with sanctioning sport, just because you put in the pattern they tell you to put in, it does not mean that what ends up on the lane will play like the shots do on tour. In fact they tell you that you may have to tweak them to even make them sport compliant.

Now back to doing better than the guy next to you.. if that's not someone's attitude then I'd suggest sticking to the house shots. My point is that no matter what gets put out on the lanes, you are competing against the other bowlers, not the score sheet. If someone is going to get their ego bruised when they shoot 120 then don't bother because you're going to shoot 120, and you're going to shoot 120 more than once. If you go in with the mind set that you're there to compete and find ways to fill frames you're going to be much better off than the person who gets self conscious when they don't hit the pocket.

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#60129 - 06/26/08 01:51 PM Re: Why am I better off for bowling in a PBAX League [Re: Lefty]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 4149
A/S/L: 42/F/California
Quote:
If someone is going to get their ego bruised when they shoot 120 then don't bother because you're going to shoot 120, and you're going to shoot 120 more than once. If you go in with the mind set that you're there to compete and find ways to fill frames you're going to be much better off than the person who gets self conscious when they don't hit the pocket.


It is the better attitude; true.

Its tough since even though most leagues are teams, there's still a very high expectation for personal achievement in this sport.

I was not experienced enough mentally to take this kind of attitude when I joined that sport league. And I paid for it. One thing to keep in mind is that these patterns are not there to be conquered. You will not beat them. You will have some occasaional sucess, but in general you will not average what you do in a regular house leauge. You can look at them as a challenge, but I would not look at them as a learning tool unless you have some excellent onlane coaching going on at the same time.

Erin

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#60130 - 06/26/08 02:14 PM Re: Why am I better off for bowling in a PBAX League [Re: Lefty]
infernocal Offline
Legend

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 2070
A/S/L: 28/m/maryland
Some leagues are advertising that they are using PBA patterns, but not even using the programs but making them up and advertise as a PBA league and many people think they are bowling on the patterns and that is the draw for these leagues, to bowl on the conditions the Pros bowl on, hence the name PBA Experience League. Its not suppose to be about doing better than the others in the league but how do you stack up against the Pros. So to say stick to house shots if your attitude is not to beat the other guy but actually experience the conditions goes completely against what USBC is trying to do makes no since to me. That's how USBC has been trying to sell these leagues to the average bowler.

Now if the centers are using the basic programming and trying to tweak them to fit, which many don't do, it's a different story but there are many of them out there that are not but rather making up shots, still advertising that they are using the patterns and not sanctioning sport.

I know the shots aren't going to be close to playing like what the Pros are on for several reasons such as the machine being used, and the fact the only time that machine is laying those patterns is for that league plus using the same. It would take constant use laying down the pattern before it works right, plus correctly and thoroughly stripping the lane. Nonetheless the centers should attempt to lay the shots somewhere correctly, or like I said call it a Tough Shot league so people aren't mislead.
_________________________
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Career
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HS:763

2008-2009 Winter Season
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