I am starting to think this was a huge mistake. I knew it was going be a tough shot, that is why a joined, but I didn't think it was going to mess me up this bad. I just finished up my eighth week tonight and I have never been so confused in my life. My mechanics are so screwed up now I am gonna need to start practicing for my fall league right after this is over. I love to bowl and look forward to it every league night, but right now I am so frustrated it is driving me nuts. All the different patterns seem to be the same for me. I have too much hand to play outside and not enough to play in side. Oh well. I just needed to vent. I really need to start practicing weekly, but all the specials in my area are on Sunday mornings (church), or Wednesday nights from 10:00pm till 2;30am(work the next day). What's a frustrated bowler to do.

Do you bowl on each pattern a set amount of time before moving on? Do you know what you're bowling on before hand?

For the shorter patterns, you need to learn to use less axis rotation, and come more up the back of the ball. Even the pros with a lot of hand play outside on these patterns.

Yeah, PBAX has me all screwed up too.

I just do what I can, and quit being upset about it.

Yeah, I'm right there with you. I left the other night just scratching my head in disgust.

I've joined desertdog and have decided to just forget about it the minute I leave the alley.

Back off your hand, and just concentrate on keeping the ball in play. Don't try and destroy the pins. You have to repeat shots on PBA patterns. Consistant release and approach will get you a lot more than trying to blast the pins off the deck each and every shot. Rememeber, less is more, meaning the less you try to do to the balll, the more pins you will knock down. Bowling on harder patterns will make you a better player, if you focus on repeating shots.

I don't know about you, but I fully intend to take over the high series and high game positions on Monday now that we go back to the longer patterns. I at least have something playable on those patterns, without totally changing my game.

I wish I'd joined a PBAX league. I thought I'd have the same experience as you guys, but I've had a chance to practice on the same patterns and have done better than I expected.

The key for me has been, I've had one shot I could throw with success on every pattern. I have enough variety in my game (and in my bag) that I can choose from several different shots in most conditions, but with the PBAX patterns I have to do exactly what they tell me to do to be successful.


The great thing about getting to practice on the patterns is, I'm starting to build a list of equipment to buy. Instead of casting around for anything that might work, I'll be looking for a specific reaction under specific conditions.

I've said this privately to a few on this board. Now I will say it to all. The PBAX is supposed to be a learning experience. If you are thrown into it without the proper explanation and guidance, it could hurt you if you cannot read the lanes and adjust accordingly. Don't get into bad habits that will cause you much time and practice to get out of.

The better PBAX leagues here have pros watching the bowlers and answering questions during the night. They even give lessons afterward to those who wish to learn. There is a tutorial sheet explaining the pattern, recommending how to play each. Hands on instruction is the best way to learn them, IMHO.

Otherwise, it is like taking a quantum mechanics test with a third grade education.

Just bowling on these without the instruction and without being able to adjust may not be the best for you at this stage of your bowling experience. Pros have coaches. So should you in this league.

This is the main reason our Association went from 13 PBAX leagues last year, down to 2. The 2 are full and have hands on coaching help. These bowlers have improved. We now have PBAX Honor scores on our honor list.

When I joined a Sport league (the first year it was available) it sent me into a 3 year slump! The shot was not a PBA shot, it was flat 50'. That's what the league secretary and coordinator wanted and that's what we got on 40 year old wood lanes. No one in our league averaged over 192 and we had Regional PBA tour winners on our league. It was a nearly impossible shot.

I was at 200+, just over that and though my physical game was good (at that time) my mental game was not. And it took the toll. Then all the stuff you are mentioning came into play. My good phsyical game went out the window as I tried to score on these lanes. My mental and physical game got a lot worse.

Bottom line. A Sport or PBA Exp. league will NOT make you better. It will show you the weaknesses in your game if you are an elevated enough level to recognize them. That being said, an untutored PBA or Sport league should not allow people under 190 to bowl in them. This type of league is for the big guys.

If you want to experience such a condition then look for something that has coaching also involved. They don't just throw you into h ell that is the sport condition with no tools available to help.

These types of leagues do not infuse you with greatness. They expose your weakness. If you have coaching available to help overcome some of these weaknesses then its educational. If not, then it can just be a frustrating experience.

Sport and PBA leagues DO NOT infuse you with greatness. Just because you bowl one doesn't mean you are going to get better. That's a huge mis conception you can thank USBC for. To join and get anything from these leagues you have to have enough knowledge to know when you threw a bad ball and what was bad about it and how to go about fixing it. Even if you know that, you have to accept that you are not a robot and do not execute the same every time. Therefore you are going to be exposed on such shots. Now if you are bowling in such a league with well experienced regional bowlers, they will know how to break down the lane to their benefit and not necessarily your benefit. So you have that to deal with too. For most people its just jumping into more then they can cope with. And I don't think USBC marketed this idea well at all.

Now like Dennis has said, if you have coaching available that truely uses this as a learning experience (and not competition) then you will get something from it. But you also have to keep in mind that finding coaches that know how to deal with these patterns is nearly impossible. You'd have to have a weekend clinic with several high level and performing coaches that actually have personal experience on these types of conditions to help you. Otherwise, you've been thrown to the sharks.

You are at a similar level that I was when I joined such a league. My suggestion would be to attend coached clinics in the area. Bowl in as many local houses as possible on house shots. Now when you can average over 200 in over a dozen or so houses (on their house condition) then you are getting close to the point where you could tackle competative PBA league situations. I've bowled in many situations that were PBA or Sport compliant and NONE of them matched up to that mess we had that first year Sport was sanctioned.

Erin

I have said it before also. I want to bowl on actual PBA patterns and I haven't seen one yet. Until my house irons out the oiling machine issues and gets it right, I will not participate again after this summer session.

They simply need to run the strip cycle once, then oil cycle and not combine them, but I can't get them to listen to me. They talk to me like I am a 3rd grader and I don't know SSSS about the game.

I have averaged over 200 in 3 different decades, won scratch tournaments, competed with PBA members, and worked in the Bowling Industry quite a bit in the past, so I think I might know at least a little bit about the game. That being said, I have taken my business elsewhere and my background where its appreciated at my local 10 lane center.

I am bowling on a PBAX league for the third year in a row, this year a different house than the previous two. I have averaged at least 20 pins below my winter league average. I expected that I would struggle initially, but get a little better as time went on. Last year I was in a major funk the whole first half of the winter league, and I am coming to realize that the PBA league could be the reason.

This summers PBAX has got my mechanics all out of whack, and I am struggling mightly. I am trying to do to much, and I believe this has caused some problems. Dennis and even my coach pointed out that my problems could be rooted with this PBAX. We start a new pattern tonight, the Viper and I am going to stick it out for this year, but I am going to rethink this in the future.
Funny, I really thought that I was helping my game by joining a PBA league when just the opposite may be true.

Now that I am aware that I am forcing the issue at times, maybe I can just relax and have better results. I'll find out tonight.

The PBAX leagues are a gimmick to try to get more people to bowl Sport leagues, which is all a PBAX is. They just happen to be the shots the Pros bowl on, and some Sport Shots are harder. They will not magically make you better or versatile. These leagues are not for everyone, or most of the average Joe Bowlers. As its been stated these leagues bring out major flaws in the game and without professional help as in coaching will do nothing for you. Then factor in the fact most of these leagues aren't using the real patterns but something the center thinks will play like the real patterns.

Cal, maybe I am naive, but aren't the PBA patterns defined by the amount of oil in units? The forward and reverse application, by boards and length? And the buff out? And, doesn't the lane have to tape the actual oil spread and submit it to the USBC to confirm they actually put that pattern down?

So, how is it materially different?

They don't have to confirm that it's a PBA pattern. They just have to confirm it's sport compliant.

As I've said many times now, you're not going to be able to put down the same exact thing that the pro's bowl on. Heck, they don't have the same shot week to week with the same exact pattern and the only thing that's changing is the house they bowl in. Now add to the different houses and lane surfaces the fact that all the centers that are running these leagues aren't using the same oilers or oil, you'll never see the same thing.

They even intentionally tweak the shot on tour from week to week.

To me, the whole topic of getting exactly what the pros get is a distraction. The important thing is that you're bowling on a sport compliant shot that takes away the big bumper people have. The pattern will not play the same in different houses. In some houses they will be somewhat easy, and it others they will be much more difficult. That's just part of the game. Everyone has to bowl on the same same condition, so sack up figure out how to do better than the next guy.

EDIT: The last comment wasn't directed to anyone in particular. It's just my attitude about bowling on any condition. If I average 160 and that's better than anyone else who's bowling, I did pretty good. If I average 230 and I'm last, I didn't bowl good enough.

Well, this is different to what the laneman tells me. In fact, he has told us that he sometimes has to spend extra time to match the lane machine spread to the specific pattern. I could agree that there could be variation on different lane surfaces. But, he says the spread and amount is pretty specific.

I agree that all patterns of this type are lumped under a Sport category. But, why would they call it a cheetah if it wasn't a cheetah?

Before each bowling night, the laneman and house pro would describe the pattern laid down, and how to address it. The laneman would also show us the tape that was to be submitted. I can't read that, but have no reason to doubt him.

They get a program from the USBC to put into their machine and then they oil the lane. This program may or may not come out as a 3:1 ratio with their machine. They may have to tweak it to make is sport compliant. They may even choose to tweak it to better match what the USBC tells them it should look like.

There is however no requirement to match that specific patterns graph. The only thing that gets checked when they submit the tapes is that it's sport compliant.

And again, from center to center the PBA itself will not have the same pattern graph identical in different centers. They will intentionally change them some times in order to compensate for a characteristic of the lanes they're on.

Dennis, not all of the PBA leagues are sport compliant or sport sanctioned so doing the tapes don't matter. All the tapes really do is to show its a sport compliant shot within the ratio, not what the exact pattern is.

Lefty, the topic of getting exactly what the pros is getting isn't a distraction. If your are bowling in a league that is advertised as a PBA Experience league where you are suppose to be bowling on the patterns the Pros use. This is the attraction to a PBAX league and why many average Joe Bowlers do these leagues. Its not necessarily to do better than the others in the league but to experience the Pro Patterns, which is why these tend to be summer leagues or short session leagues. If they aren't getting the basic pattern program that gets tweaked on the Tour to play similar at the different houses on Tour then don't advertise as being a PBAX league but rather a tough shot league. Yes, they may play differently in different houses and yes what you get at the the league level will be different but the centers should at least attempt to layout the correct pattern and not make up their version of the pattern. Now if its advertised as tough shot leagues its a different story.

You are bowling on the pattern, but it is highly unlikely that the pattern put into your houses machine using the oil your house uses on the lane surface at your house will play the same way it does at any particular tour stop.



Also, if you aren't sanctioning as sport, you are not a PBAX league. PBAX leagues have to be sanctioned sport. I also don't think they're allowed to advertise as a PBAX league unless they do sanction sport.

Even with sanctioning sport, just because you put in the pattern they tell you to put in, it does not mean that what ends up on the lane will play like the shots do on tour. In fact they tell you that you may have to tweak them to even make them sport compliant.

Now back to doing better than the guy next to you.. if that's not someone's attitude then I'd suggest sticking to the house shots. My point is that no matter what gets put out on the lanes, you are competing against the other bowlers, not the score sheet. If someone is going to get their ego bruised when they shoot 120 then don't bother because you're going to shoot 120, and you're going to shoot 120 more than once. If you go in with the mind set that you're there to compete and find ways to fill frames you're going to be much better off than the person who gets self conscious when they don't hit the pocket.

It is the better attitude; true.

Its tough since even though most leagues are teams, there's still a very high expectation for personal achievement in this sport.

I was not experienced enough mentally to take this kind of attitude when I joined that sport league. And I paid for it. One thing to keep in mind is that these patterns are not there to be conquered. You will not beat them. You will have some occasaional sucess, but in general you will not average what you do in a regular house leauge. You can look at them as a challenge, but I would not look at them as a learning tool unless you have some excellent onlane coaching going on at the same time.

Erin

Some leagues are advertising that they are using PBA patterns, but not even using the programs but making them up and advertise as a PBA league and many people think they are bowling on the patterns and that is the draw for these leagues, to bowl on the conditions the Pros bowl on, hence the name PBA Experience League. Its not suppose to be about doing better than the others in the league but how do you stack up against the Pros. So to say stick to house shots if your attitude is not to beat the other guy but actually experience the conditions goes completely against what USBC is trying to do makes no since to me. That's how USBC has been trying to sell these leagues to the average bowler.

Now if the centers are using the basic programming and trying to tweak them to fit, which many don't do, it's a different story but there are many of them out there that are not but rather making up shots, still advertising that they are using the patterns and not sanctioning sport.

I know the shots aren't going to be close to playing like what the Pros are on for several reasons such as the machine being used, and the fact the only time that machine is laying those patterns is for that league plus using the same. It would take constant use laying down the pattern before it works right, plus correctly and thoroughly stripping the lane. Nonetheless the centers should attempt to lay the shots somewhere correctly, or like I said call it a Tough Shot league so people aren't mislead.

That's what bowling is about. It's not about what you score but how you score compared to everyone else who's bowling. Again, if someone isn't going in with that mentality then they're better off not bowling. You can't compare yourself to someone who didn't bowl on the same lanes you did.





If they are not sanctioning sport, they are not a PBAX league and it has nothing to do with the PBAX program the USBC is doing. If the center is misleading bowlers then that's wrong of the center, not the USBC.

I don't think they should have sanctioned "tough shot" leagues because now you have an entire league that has book averages below their ability on a house shot, which is where all the book averages come from.

We work really hard to discourage sandbagging and here's a type of league that nearly promotes it.

Erin

This is true unless everyone bowls on tough shot leagues.

Most of the summer PBAX leagues aren't sanctioned though.

My summer sport league isn't sanctioned. I am doing it for practice. It is helping me with my spare game and my mental game. Adjustments come differently on a sport pattern than a house pattern. I think that it is fun to try to learn how to move on different patterns.

Mine's unsanctioned, though it the manager claims to have the lane downloads from USBC, and so far they seem to play in the part of the lane that they "should".

I really fail to see why any lane would promote a PBA shot and not put it dowm.

Erin, you bring up a very valid point. A PBA league, will cause lower then normal averages. If it is not sanctioned, it is recorded the same as another house league. This could be used as the basis for tournaments. Now that's not fair.

If the league was sanctioned, the rule book provides an adjustment table from Sport average to House equivalent.

Ours are obviously sanctioned leagues. Hence, the PBA honor score awards.

I have mentioned this before in the chat room. There is a guy who was the leader for Singles, Doubles, and All Events in the Classified division at the USBCs. There is all sorts of controversy on this guy. They started calling him Bowler K.

Summer is one thing. But many tournaments will take a summer league average if there is not previous book average.

I think if the manager or league officers know its a "tough shot" and do not bother to go the whole way and sanction PBA/Sport, then the league should be UNsanctioned.

You know you are not going to get the entire bowling community to book averages on "tough shots". We have enough ruthless people in this association that would bowl this kind of league, not for the experience, but to get that lower average.

Erin

[quote=cgeorg]Do you bowl on each pattern a set amount of time before moving on? Do you know what you're bowling on before hand?

Yes we know before hand what shot we will be bowling on. We bowl on each pattern for 2 weeks. The only instruction we get is the hand out you can get off of Bowl.com. I realize I won't be bowling on the Pro Tour any time soon, but I don't consider myself a house bowler either. I have bowled in our Associations City Tournament the past 3 years and enjoy the tournament setting so I would really like to start bowling in tournaments and thought this would help. I guess I should just stick to practicing on my own and finding a good coach.

I joined to Bowl on actual PBA patterns, laid down properly. NOT to beat anybody in the league because I simply don't care how I fare against them.

As for the sandbagging, I would LOVE to take my PBAX average and go ahead and adjust it up, and I would be getting HUGE amounts of handicap. My average is not 10-20 pins lower, its 60-70 pins lower. So I guess I just suck that bad and 3 decades of 200 plus averages are meaningless.

You can spin it anyway you want to. I signed up for PBAX, not reverse block league. So if I wanna be angry about it, that is my right. Its not about the competition, because if I take you in the back parking lot and beat you bowling on pavement, it doesn't mean a [censored] thing.

If you want the same thing that they have in the round of 64, they're going to have to strip and oil the pairs you bowl on a lot of times. The PBA lane man has said that they don't get the lane clean the way they want it for days. This is also backed up by people who've bowled the PTQ's who've said that the lanes don't react the same during practice as they do during the PTQ's, and they don't react the same way during the PTQ's as they do during the round of 64.



It's not spin, it's reality. Bowling is about who executes and adjusts better, regardless of the condition. A house shot make Execution and adjustments much less important. Sport conditions make it these things a premium. If you are the one who scores higher, you out bowled the other person. If you didn't, you got out bowled. That's the bottom line.

And you're right, you can absolutely complaint about it all you want. Just fill in the blank : "I bowled bad because..."

My answer is going to be "because I didn't get it done".

CWULFF, there is a lot of merit to what you say. Practice and get coaching. The problem I found with that approach was what was I practicing on? Used up, weak oil lanes. If I was bowling on tournament conditions, I wanted to practice on tournament conditions. And, around here, that is hard to find.

I searched out the toughest lane conditions I could find for league. they were House Sport leagues, and they were not sanctioned as such. But, the oil was heavy and the competition good. I really enjoy practicing on PBA patterns in the Summer. It throws a different wrinkle at you.

I just don't see the PBAX league as a viable alternative. Most of the competition is weaker, and many are fighting themself instead of the lane.

When I bowl, my first focus should be me against the lane condition. Not me against me.

You can always be available to sub in the evenings. That would give you some "fresh" conditions on which to ply your game. Though our teams do not utilize subs, many do. Even on house shots you have to execute. And if you are in the mind set to really pay attention to your ball and your Execution you will see for yourself what's going wrong and right. But you have to be totally honest with yourself when you hit or miss. And recognize that sometimes when you miss, you get the hit because........another thing you have to learn. Why when you missed, did you still get a pocket hit and carry.

But this is why I say that when you can average 200+ in say.....10 - 15 different houses. You have a pretty good handle on your game. Doesn't matter if its house conditions. At that point you are proabably ready to move to the weekly sport or PBA condition without it being a major confusing and demoralizing experience.

Erin

There's a lot of dis illusionment with the Sport and PBA experience leagues. USBC dished out more then they could maintain and provide. Therefore you have to take into account your center and its equipment, its mechanics and therefore its ability to put these patterns into effect. Even though you were fed a story of PBA conditions that played like the PBA write ups from the pros......that's not how it works. Too many variables. So in the end you are left with what everyone is left with when they walk into any competition league or tournament. You have to play what's there. Bad approaches, bad lane conditions, mal functioning machines, PBA or Sport condition etc........... PBA or Sport shot doesn't save you from these all too common glitches. You know as well as I do that when the pros bowl the machine is prepped and working well. Lanes are double stripped. That the proper amount of stripper is in the machine that its filled with oil as it should be. You are NOT guaranteed that in your home center. That's given that your center has a fairly contemporary lane oiling machine and a lane mechanic that knows what they are doing. A fairly rare event in my experience.

Erin

You continue to miss the point, and its pointless for me to continue this discussion.

I wanted to bowl on PBA PATTERNS, not a sport league. I couldn't care less how anybody else bowls on it. It is simply the only way I had available to bowl on the pba patterns. Simple as that my friend. There is no competition in my eyes outside of me against the lanes, obviously I haven't bowled well on it and that is my fault.

It DOES NOT however change the fact that I am now forced to pay for 13 weeks of bowling that is other than what was advertised. I am not going to re-tool my entire game for 13 weeks of this nonsense. In fact its really only 4 weeks of Cheetah and Viper that matter. The other patterns play just fine inside where the 1-5 board never come into play.

So myself like the person who started this thread are not interested in making changes for the summer only to have it affect us adversely this winter season.

I'll stick to the THS where us house hacks with no talent belong. At least there when I am averaging 220, I can use the same excuse that everybody bowls on the same condition. Of course we know how that discussion goes as well.

New Flash: You are bowling on PBA patterns and PBA patterns are sport compliant.



You are getting what's advertised. No one said that they were going to bring in the PBA's oiler, lane man and shut down the center for a week so that they could get the patterns exactly the way they are for a tournament. They don't even get them exact from week to week on the tour.



This right here is one of the biggest problems with the sport today. People don't want to bowl on a condition other than the great wall of china because they figure out that their game isn't as good as they think it is. Heaven forbid that someone actually has to change something to make them a better bowler.




Have fun.

A long while ago, we had this big discussion on this board of whether a 300 bowled on a house shot was really the same as a 300 bowled by a PBA member on their shot.

Wow, did that raise some eyebrows, on both sides of the fence.

Subsequently, this thing called the PBAX came about, and some, myself being one, took this as a dare. And, I was humbled. But, not by the lanes or condition, but by the way I reacted to the patterns. Instead of playing what I saw, and using the appropriate equipment, I tried to force the result as I could force it on a house shot. And, that just didn't work. In fact, it screwed me up for almost 8 months.

Needless to say, my first experience with the PBAX was not a good one.

In retrospect, I now know what I was doing wrong. I can remember what others were doing wrong and saying. And, I now have learned from that. But, I didn't realize it at the time. I was fighting a losing battle, and changing me in the process.

This year is an entirely different approach. I am taking my time to read the lanes more and see how it has shown me a flaw in my approach, my swing, my release, my rotation. And, I am more conscious of that. Rather than say the ball didn't react on that oil, I say what did I do that caused the reaction, and how do I modify that. As has been said here many times, these patterns magnify any flaw that you have. And, it takes an astute player to recognize that. That's why I am an advocate of a Coach or trainer in attendance.

Too many of us are not addressing this PBAX thing in that manner. I am the only one that I know of from our league of last year that is doing this again. The others were frustrated, and gave up.

Now, when I bowl in tournaments, I'm not apprehensive. I have learned how to read the lanes better, and how to adjust to the condition, any condition, laid down. I now realize that I didn't get enough revs out of the ball, and addressed that. I now realize that I often early rotated, and sometimes over rotated. I have improved my accuracy. I now can manage my speed and timing better. I now realize the value of using the right equipment to match the condition. I have learned my equipment better. I would have shelved a ball. Now, I pull it out for the Shark. And, I have learned this through PBAX.

Most of these things, I could get away with on a house shot, or contrive some method around it. This was the wrong approach that I have been using for the past 3 years of my return.

And, this is for you Erin. Those methods would have worked in the 70's. Not today. Where you used to muscle, you need ease and fluidity today. Where you could play straight up 10 before, you may now have to move inside. Where you could side rotate before, you have to come out straight up today.

I will admit, I have bowled better practicing on the PBA Patterns, with the score off. I don't care about the score. But, I now know when I have rolled a good ball, and made the proper adjustment. I can tell by the feel of the speed, the swing, the hand, and the release, regardless of the score. How many times have you pulled a ball, but rode the center oil for a strike? Be honest. Did you correct that? Chances are not, because you struck. You just went to the next frame. That doesn't happen on these patterns.

Now it's time for me to put it into real play. And, that will take practice.

I guess I will have to bowl a regional to put this one to bed.

DD, don't think I missed your point. You want what you pay for, and that's it. That discussion should be between you and the House, not here.

All we are saying here is the PBAX, or for that matter, any Sport pattern, should be a challenge that the bowler has to be able to play. There generally are not any patterns of this type where one can practice, and when faced with one, it causes trouble.

This type of league, and if you are lucky to have practice available, gives you the opportunity to bowl on a more challenging shot. Whether it is PBA, NCAA, Seniors or Denny's patterns is immaterial. This should be a learning experience.

All I know is when I bowl ABT's, they tell you the pattern, but it is usually a house sport shot, and all they say is 40 feet tapered, and buffed. Not much else. One has to be able to bowl on that. And, you only get 1 ball on each lane to read the lane.

I agree, if you expect one pattern, it should be that pattern. Talk with your house.