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#5922 - 09/21/04 09:45 PM Individual Handicap Calculation Schedule
LadyLuck Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 150
A/S/L: 52/F/NY
Hi everyone!

I bowl in a ladies league and one of the women runs a handicap pot. On more than one occasion last year I couldn't seem to tie into her numbers when I calculated the numbers myself. It happened again last night. I know how to properly calculate the numbers which has led me to believe that her calculations may be incorrect. She has a printed sheet that she uses showing each average and the individual handicap. It's based on 200 at 80%.

I'd like to double-check her numbers. Does anyone have an individual handicap schedule that I can print out so that I can compare it to hers?
I'm hoping that someone will have it so that I don't have to calculate it one by one.

It bothers me to think that the wrong people are winning the pots because of an error in calculation.

Any help would be appreciated.
_________________________
LadyLuck

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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#5923 - 09/21/04 11:04 PM Re: Individual Handicap Calculation Schedule
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Do any of the ladies average over 200? If so then you need to bump up the handicap cap to over the highest average bowler. After that its pretty clear cut. 80% is 80% or whatever percentage they are doing. Some pot games go by "pins over the average".

Personally I don't ever play the pot games or the card games. Too much chance of foul play and I won't be involved.

Erin

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#5924 - 09/22/04 02:15 AM Re: Individual Handicap Calculation Schedule
Coach04 Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 1000
A/S/L: Male/Texas
Look on the back of the pink copy of your score sheets. The one you write your scores on durring league play. It has a list of handicap pins based against different percentages.

First you have to deduct the average from the handicap number, in your case 200. Then look on that sheet and match the answer from your subtraction, to the list under the percentages listed, in your case 80%.

It will tell you how many pins, and of course all fractions are dropped as per ABC/WIBC rule.

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#5925 - 09/22/04 09:57 AM Re: Individual Handicap Calculation Schedule
gareth12468 Offline
Bantam

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 13
A/S/L: Toronto, Canada
I have a Microsoft Excel file for handicape calculation. I can email you the file if you like. Let me know.

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#5926 - 09/22/04 01:01 PM Re: Individual Handicap Calculation Schedule
LadyLuck Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 150
A/S/L: 52/F/NY
Erin -

There is only one woman who averages 210 then the next in line is 178. Last year I tried to convince the other bowlers that we needed to raise the cap to 210+ but they wouldn't go for it. A lot of the women are set in their ways and don't like to change. Why they are willing to give an added advantage to someone who has a much higher average than the majority of the other bowlers is beyond me. I tried to explain it but couldn't get anywhere.

I actually enjoy participating in pots, cards, etc.
--------------

Coach04 -

Believe it or not, the back of our recap sheets no longer have the schedules. My guess is that since everything is computerized these days it was felt that it was no longer necessary.

As I said, I know how to do the calculations but was looking for hard copy.
------------------------

Gareth12468-

I was able to secure a copy of what I needed from another on-line buddy.

Thanks so much for your offer.
------------------------

I'm going to double-check her schedule in the next week or two and I'll let you know my results.

Thanks everyone for your help.
_________________________
LadyLuck

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#5927 - 09/30/04 01:18 PM Re: Individual Handicap Calculation Schedule
LadyLuck Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 150
A/S/L: 52/F/NY
Here's an update.

I gave a copy of the new schedule to the individual that runs the handicap pot. She compared it to the one she was using. There was a discrepancy.
It seems that the person who prepared her schedule was rounding the numbers up and down.

As a result, she agreed to start using the one I prepared for her.

I'm glad that it all worked out without any hard feelings on her part. smile
_________________________
LadyLuck

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#5928 - 09/30/04 07:25 PM Re: Individual Handicap Calculation Schedule
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
The league we joined when we moved, had a long established handicapping "way its always been" tradition. Individual handicap 90% of 200, and there were numerous (more then 5, less then 12) bowlers over 210 and a couple over 220. It was indeed very difficult to explain to people why this was not fair. But we kept at it and when the league reformed for the summer, we proposed a vote to change the handicap. The proposal was adopted to handicap to 90% of 220 and low and behold that summer found some very different teams in the roll offs. :-)

Since then fall has now started. Someone proposed a similar change for this fall (summer and fall are two different leagues but called by the same name and basically have the same people more or less in them) but it was to 210. That too was adopted. Funny that many of the summer bowlers continue in this same league for fall and those that supported the 220 change were not there at the meeting to vote.

But Lady Luck, I dont' understand why anyone would participate in this pot game, unless the 210 bowler doesn't participate. Its just another expample of how confusing handicapping can be and trying to be fair isn't always easy.

Erin

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#5929 - 09/30/04 08:21 PM Re: Individual Handicap Calculation Schedule
LadyLuck Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 150
A/S/L: 52/F/NY
Erin -

Many of the leagues in the house I bowl in use 90% of 220. This method, in my opinion, seems to even the playing field quite fairly. There is usually a greater mix of teams at different average levels finishing in the top 25%.

In the ladies league which I'm referring to above, the handicap is determined by the simple method of subtracting one team's average from another and multiplying by 80%. Therefore, the 210 average is included in the calculation and is not given an advantage.

At 80% a lot of the same teams finish at the top year after year. This year we decided to go to a split season which might help change things a bit. Some of the other teams might be able to hold a spot in the top third over the short haul.

As far as the handicap pot goes, believe it or not the 210 average bowler doesn't win all that often. This league, excluding the 210 average bowler, throws quite a few 200+ games weekly. I'd say roughly 8 per week which is higher than most leagues with our averages.

I also bowl on a mixed league that runs a ladies scratch pot only, no handicap. The joke is that I had the highest average at 171 (what a laugh).
I won a ridiculous amount of pots last year. There were times that I was winning two out of three each night, which shouldn't happen. I tried to convince the woman who ran the pot to change it to handicap so that everyone else would have a better chance of winning. She wouldn't go for it. I feel guilty winning as often as I do. I
tried to make it fair. What else can I do?

I'm always amazed at how some people see things.

This year I brought in a new team with two women with averages close to mine. I'm hoping they'll win some games and I'll win a lot less. This is the first time I've ever been in a league where I hoped that I won less pots LOL.
_________________________
LadyLuck

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#5930 - 10/01/04 03:26 AM Re: Individual Handicap Calculation Schedule
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
<<In the ladies league which I'm referring to above, the handicap is determined by the simple method of subtracting one team's average from another and multiplying by 80%. Therefore, the 210 average is included in the calculation and is not given an advantage.>>

Yeah, this is the type of handicapping I'm used to. Team handicapping. But ABC says you can also use individual and simply add it up. If you work out a sample to see the difference you'll see that there is indeed a difference, in favor of the 210 bowler if you use individual handicapping vs. team handicapping. When we moved, the new area and association seems to do more individual handicapping then team handicapping. Which is really confusing to me, since this is NOT tournament/single play, but rather team play. So it would make more sense to me to have team handicap. But the Sec. is a 210+ bowler with his friend 220+ and his wife 130 and another 130 bowler they gain tons of handicap doing it individually. They would lose handicap, drastically, if they did it by team as you've described.

<< I feel guilty winning as often as I do. I
tried to make it fair. What else can I do?>>

If it bothers you that much, then don't participate. I've seen so many crooked card games and stacked pot games, that I no longer give up my attention to them.

Erin

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#5931 - 10/01/04 03:48 AM Re: Individual Handicap Calculation Schedule
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
LadyLuck,

I do have another idea, which I had forgotten. I was in a mixed handicap league on Fridays once, where they had a pot game per game, BUT.....they paid out three places. The pot game was scratch, but with the three places, there was always a good variety of winners. It was also 100% pay out. Which is something you might want to investigate in your situation. To see if the pot game co ordinator is actually making money by organizing the pot game. There maybe a fee, she is keeping as co ordinator, which could be why your numbers don't seem to match up with hers.

This co ordinater that we had, always made sure that third place AT LEAST made their buy in money back. The buy in was always the same (unfortuantely I can't remember what that was), but depending on how many participants there were, the pay out changed (especially for first and second). But again, third always at least made their money back and it was a 100% pay out.

Erin

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