Just to clarify, I'm not posting this in the videos section because I figured this topic could help anyone, not just me. That, and because I'm asking mainly about one component of my game rather than asking for tips to improve my game in general.

That said, I want some help determining what dictates how accurate you are on the lane. The things I do know that are important for the best accuracy are timing, following through, clean release, free armswing, and correct body allignment. This brings me to the one major thing I have changed since posting the above video a couple months ago.

My balance arm, see how high it is? Now, what I do is put that arm in front of me on the backswing, and as I come through the shot it goes to my side(it's fairly low, a lot lower than in that video). I guess you could compare what I do with the balance arm to what Tommy Jones does with his.

Anyways, what I want to know is how much of an effect it has on one's accuracy. It's my understanding that the purpose of putting it in front of you like T.Jones is to open your shoulders to allow for the higher backswing. My coach tells me I need to shorten my backswing(it's still as high as it is in that video) so I can stay under the ball. You probably can't see it in the video but I'm told that with my backswing that high I'm on top of the ball.

Another reason it's that high is because I think I'm muscling the backswing. I came to this conclusion because my backswing doesn't get lower(at least not not very noticeable) when I lower the ball in my stance. So, would you guys encourage me to keep my balance arm more on my side or behind me the whole time, and all the time?

By the way, the reason I'm posting this is because I struggled on the scorpion tonight in my PBAX league. The condition called for me to play straighter down 13 or so(maybe a 1-2 board swing) and over half the time I missed right(3 boards or more). I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. I thought I was staying square but I couldn't throw the ball straight to save my life after the second game.

To me it looks like you are not letting the ball fall after the pushaway and then you actually do pull it up into the backswing. To be sure you are really doing this, try this exercise: in your stance, relax your shoulder. Put all the ball's weight in your left hand and completely relax the right arm, including the shoulder (relax the upper trapezius muscles between the neck and shoulder). If your body tries to pull the ball up into the backswing, your shoulder will tense up, since the arm can't pull weight up if the shoulder isn't stabilized.

If you really have your shoulder relaxed in the stance, you will feel it tense up in the backswing. If it's tense in the stance already, you will not feel it tense up later.

This was a real eye-opener for me, as I too used to pull the ball up, but didn't really realize it.

After I stopped doing it, my accuracy went up and my backswing felt as if it only went up to about 7 o'clock, but people assured me it actually gets to about 9:30. (when I was muscling the backswing, it went up to 10:30 or 11)

There's nothing wrong with muscling the backswing, but you do need a lot more practice to do it consistently. So it's simpler to just stop muscling it.

The same goes for using the balance arm to open and close your shoulders. This is an extra movement that just complicates things. The pros are able to do it consistently because they simply bowl so much more than we do. In my opinion it's best to keep things as simple as possible. This means keeping the shoulders pretty much at the same angle all of the time.

I agree with Luksa... you are controlling / muscling your arm swing. You're using your muscles to slow the swing down on the way down, pulling the ball up the back swing and then slowing the swing down the down swing. Then when you get to the bottom, you try and force the ball through.

Gravity is your friend. Let the ball swing on it's own. You'll get more ball speed and be more accurate because you don't have to rely on your muscles doing the same exact thing every single time.

Set up with the entire weight of the ball in your left hand. Then your hand, arm and shoulder need to be completely relaxed. So relaxed that if you took your left hand away, the ball would plummet to the floor. Now use your left hand to start your push away and keep everything else just as relaxed. Now take your left hand away and let the ball fall into the swing. You need to keep your right side just as relaxed though. You're going to want to tense up so you can control the swing. Don't do it. Let the ball fall and swing on it's own. Then let it stop at the top of the back swing all on it's own. And then let it descend all on it's own.

Easier said than done, Lefty!

This is one of my two big bowling problems.

That and not following through.

I've done the easy part (recognizing the problem), now for the hard part (fixing them)!

Good luck on that, anyways!

The Scorpion has higher volume of oil on the outside, and farther down the lane. As it spreads, it forces the bowler to move constantly. Playing the same line in the last frame will not be the same as playing that line in the first.

Last time I bowled the scorpion, there was a nicce shot straight up the board late in the session. It took me 2.5 games to figure it out though. I will be interested to see how it plays early though, next time I bowl on it.

I agree with Luksa and Lefty, you are catching the ball after the push away and then pulling it back. Catching the ball is a symptom of an improper ball fit. If you drop the ball into the swing the ball will feel like it is falling off your hand and then you catch it causing you to pull the ball back.

Your trail leg may also be a problem for you, you are kicking it to the left instead of back in line with your target, this is causing your hips to point to the right and even if your shoulders are square to the target line, the ball will have to cross your body to hit the target. Keep your belt buckle pointed toward the target and your shoulders square to the target line. Your trail leg is like a rudder on a boat and the left arm is what steers that rudder, so keep your left arm square to your target line at the release and you will be fine as long as you learn to just let the ball swing like a wrecking ball.

And it seems to go all the way back to bad ball fit. Since I have to grip it, I can't have a free armswing because the muscles tightened up as soon as the left hand didn't have the ball anymore. Is that right? Now, currently I have proper spans in my equipment with 1/2 forward pitch(at least the ones I was throwing last night), but still had to squeeze/knuckle the ball because I didn't have enough tape in the holes. I think my spare ball was done in a way that it rubs on the side of my thumb(another game or two and I'd have ripped the skin). I told my driller that and he thinks I might just need a little more room in that spot and then I'll add more tape.

If I had enough tape in the holes I would get away with gripping with the base of my thumb rather than knuckling it. I don't think this would have changed the fact that my spare ball was rubbing my thumb on the side though.

I like the idea of keeping it simple. From now on I'll be trying to put my balance arm square to my target line(meaning straight out), but low. One of the main reasons I've lost balance especially in that video is because of the height of my balance arm. That, and timing I bet.

As for my trail leg, I'll admit I got better with it. When I use it correctly, it's more or less under me so it's not way out there and my hips stay in line. I'd show you guys a new video but I can't find the cord that goes from my camera to my computer to put videos on it. I'd still have to make the video anyways I haven't taken a video because I have no cord to put it on the computer.

How much tape are you putting in a hole? Once you get past 3 pieces then hole is probably a tad too big. Either way you should not be squeezing with any part of the thumb if the fit is right, that includes a thumbhole that is too big.

Two pieces right now, probably could have gone to 3 or 4 and that should have been fine. The thing about my thumb is this(and most of the reason I didn't put more tape in). I think I go in swelling. I normally don't take tape out, I just use easy slide. After about 10 shots or so the hole starts to feel a little bigger(I must be shrinking?) and I can comfortably get my thumb in the hole. Even with easy slide, I struggle with the thumb hole a little bit until the swelling goes down.

I don't mean to be negative or anything but I'm finding it almost impossible to have a completely relaxed hand during the swing(especially if I cup the wrist but that's beside the point) because of my thumb. Maybe I'm just one of those people? As far as I know the only people that are able to do it on this forum are CoachJim, Lefty, Cal, cgeorg, and maybe DesertDog and Dennis. Maybe more, but I think there's only a handful of people who can do it. And the fact that my thumb has become really wide compared to my left thumb from squeezing for so long makes it seem even harder to get that right fit.

Four pieces isn't too bad. You really should adjust the tape as needed. Many people have thumbs that swell and contract, thats one of the benefits of the tape. Mine might change several times during the course of the night, if I need another piece of tape I'll add it, if the hole is getting a little tight I take a piece out. My fingers will do the same, thats why I recently gave the Vacu-Grips a try and its definitely been worth it.

Do you advise against easy slide then? If that's the case, I'd probably go through a pack of tape in less than a month depending on how much practice I do within the month. The other thing is I think I'd have to take 3+ pieces of tape out to begin with because most of the time I can't get my thumb in past the knuckle, that's how bad it is.

I also editted my last post.

You can take me off the list of those who can do it, at least on an every shot basis. I just recently, like in the last month had a ball that was properly fit. Its a work in progress for me. I used to be able to do it with my equipment that had a stretched span at times but without concentrating on it would quickly get away from it. Gripping the ball is part of your "muscle memory" so it might take a little bit of time to learn how to not grip it. I can hold the ball and cup my wrist and keep the hand relaxed, but I'm still working on doing it consistently every shot.

As for the tape issue, I think there is someone on here, maybe it was Erin, who said she completely changes her tape every time she bowls, which probably means going through a lot of tape. I buy tape in bulk, like a 250 piece roll, so it normally lasts awhile. You might want to look into something like Ron Clifton's Magic Carpet, or once you get your grip squared away a switch grip system. It can be a little expensive at first to get it installed in a big arsenal but will pay for itself in the long run if your thumb changes that much. I do advise against the easy slide as it will leave residue in the hole and then make you have to grip even when you shouldn't have to. There are a few tricks to try to make the thumb smaller at the start of the night. There is the raw potato trick where you cut the potato in half core a hole in it just big enough to get your thumb in it and press it in there for a few minutes. You can also squeeze the thumb with the non-bowling hand and it helps to push the blood out that causes the swelling. There are several others as well.

Your bowling thumb might eventually go back to normal and make getting a good fitting thumbhole easier. I don't have that problem as both thumbs are similar, the right one is just a little bigger due to it getting used more.

My driller did mention that I would probably be a good candidate for switch grips. He was also talking about exacticating my thumb to make sure we get the exact size/shape. I was also looking into the Magic Carpet, any particular reason you're suggesting that for me?

For the raw Potato trick, I've used it in the past for healing purposes. In terms of it making the swelling go down, is that just temporary, or if I do it enough will it eventually make my thumb get close to the size of my non-bowling thumb? I'm sure squeezing my bowling thumb is just a temporary fix, which might be worth a try though.

When I say that people on this forum can relax their hand during their approach, I wasn't referring to the ability to do it. I fully agree that everyone can do it with practice, and even if you have to pay attention to it, that's not so bad. I meant that I find it impossible to fit me in a way that I don't "have" to squeeze, because of the shape/size of my bowling thumb compared to my non-bowling thumb, or whatever reason there is.

By the way, just wanted to say thanks to you all who have contributed to helping me here so far.

Yes, both tricks are temporary and usually work to get the night started with less issues. The less issues you have and the less gripping that happens might let the thumb get back to normal. I've found with each change with fit over the last year and half, I've been able to get a smaller and smaller thumb hole.

I mentioned the Magic Carpet because it helps keep a snug fit whether your thumb is swelled or contracted with less change of tape needed, at least thats what I've read about it.

As for your individual problem with thumb hole fit, maybe an oval hole is needed. If your thumb is much wider side to side than nail side to pad side than this might be the way to go. Its another matter if your driller knows how to do it correctly. I've mention on previous posts that this isn't possible for me because the base of my thumb is very round and actually bigger than the knuckle of the thumb which required starting with a smaller thumb hole and then flaring the top of the hole out to accommodate for this, either that or a very large hole that required tons of tape. Once you get your grip straightened out, a relaxed hand will be easier to accomplish. Ball fit is an ongoing process of trial and error as well as needing to change for different reasons such as lost of dexterity and flexibility.

I do have an oval thumb hole, as my thumb is wider side to side, even my non-bowling thumb is that way(but to a lesser extent obviously due to the fact that it's normal). By base of your thumb being round I assume you mean the part of your thumb between the knuckle and the joint. Or do you mean the joint itself? If it's the former, mine is skinnier than my knuckle. If it's the latter, mine is almost the same size as the width of my knuckle.

I requested a free sample from Ron today so if he does send one I'll see how it feels. When I think about it, it seems like a weird concept because it's strange that a product than make your thumb stay in the hole longer and let it release at the right time.

Trying to relax your hand really isn't doing anything if you don't relax the whole right arm. Trust me I've tried to relax the hand without relaxing the whole arm. You either pull it and hope for the best or drop it at the line and watch it roll down the 2 board. You have to relax your entire right arm by letting the weight of your ball rest in your left hand. This will take the tension out of your forearm and allow you to throw more accurately and relaxed. You also have to let the left hand support the weight all the way through the pushaway otherwise you're muscling it which by the way things sound is exactly what you don't want to do.

As for a completly relaxed hand, I believe CoachJim, Lefty, Call and the rest of them are referring to a feeling where the ball doesnt even feel like it's in your hand. You do have to sqeeze a tiny bit to hang onto the ball otherwise the guy behind you might catch it in the head.

Lastly, I was just wondering if this sqeezing issue started before or after you got the Vacu-grips? Because until resently, actually today, I was about to give up on them because I couldn't get the balls to work for me, but I figured it out. Plus from my own experince, sqeezing the ball can be very hazardous to a bowler's game if they are using Vacu-Grips. Timing issues, not a clean release, balance issues, but I'm not saying don't use them, just be careful.

Demo-Man

Cal is the one using the vacu-grips.

The one thing I don't understand about keeping your whole arm relaxed is once you're in the swing, how do you expect to stay under the ball? You need to use your wrist/forearm for that. If you don't, I bet you either sacrifice revs or don't get the right roll you want on the ball anyways. Other than that, I don't see it as a big problem assuming your don't have to squeeze to hang onto the ball.

The answer is easier than your think, and its what worked for me.

Roll your ball without putting your thumb in it a few times. That there proves that you don't need to grip the ball at all. Tehn use the same hand position and put your thumb in the ball, and keep your fingers and thumb relaxed.

My bad on the Vacu-Grips, but if you want them there is my two cents for you.

Actually, all you need is your shoulder. The relaxed arm allows for a relaxed and free armswing where gravity acts as the force for the ball instead of your muscles and your shoulder acts as a follcum. The only thing you really do with your wrist is turn it over to get side rotation. As for staying under the ball, centripical force and your drilling wil keep your hand there.

And yes you do sacrifice some revs. but you let the ball do the work as well as be able to throw 9-12 games a day with a 16 pound ball.

Hopefully I can just get my fit as close to perfect as I can get in order to not squeeze. I've come to the conclusion some grip pressure will be necessary but it sshould be very little.

Don't think some grip pressure is necessary! If you think it is, you will probably grip too much. If the ball is drilled correctly, it WILL stay on your hand even with your arm and hand completely limp!

Here's my experience with regard to the free swing: I decided my main objective was to have a truly free swing, so I tried keeping my arm completely limp. My accuracy went up, revs went down, scores went UP! Now when I know what a free swing feels like, I'm trying to have a stronger wrist position again while trying to keep my swing as free as possible.

So, basically, a completely free swing and a cupped wrist are probably not achievable, but you can get close with practice. You need to teach your body to be able to keep your underarm muscles active and all your other arm and shoulder muscles relaxed.

You don't have to use your wrist and forearm for that. The reason you think you do is because you slow down your arm swing and gravity wants to pull the ball to the floor and you are using your muscles to slow it down. If you don't prevent the ball from falling, your hand and the ball will fall at the same speed and it doesn't take any effort at all. At the bottom of the swing, your hand will be behind the ball and as it goes up the back swing, your hand is actually on top of the ball.

And that's exactly how you should be doing it.

I concur with Lefty and Luska

I concur with TheDemolitionMan's concurrence with Lefty and Luska.

Okay, I agree with you guys about the free armswing. I know it's a little harder to cup the wrist and still stay free, but like Luksa said it will get better with practice. How much accuracy would you be sacrificing if you wanted more revs though?

It's the grip pressure deal I really hate right now. It just seems out of this world to me.

You don't have to sacrafice any revs if you release the ball properly. It's not cupping that's going to get you the revs. It's keeping your fingers inside the center of the ball.

EDIT: From looking at your release and revs, you should be able to get more revs and a better ball reaction with a free arm swing.

That makes sense lefty. What I've been doing recently though, is staying inside the center of the ball when I wanted more side roll. I noticed it gave me more revs too, but when I wanted to have more forward roll I would hold my hand so my fingers are at 4 and 5 on the clock and just keep it there through the release without any turn. That's a lot easier than trying to turn your hand less at release point, even though you don't get as many revs. Does that make sense?

Yep, that makes sense. Something else you might want to look at is that you don't have the ball cupped when you get to the line. In fact your wrist is slightly broken. So whatever you're trying to do at the beginning of your approach doesn't have you end up with a cupped wrist. Hope that helps to alleviate your fears of what will happen if you don't cup the ball.

In that case, I think I'm fine. But for some reason, I have the feeling that my wrist is a a somewhat strong position, at least straight. That's fine for me. My coach also tells me I'm never under the ball anyways, so what I doing with my hand in my stance is essentially pointless(except for comfortability). He suggested I lower my armswing to accomodate this, since it's easier to stay under the ball then. At the top of my swing as it is, I'm on top of the ball and have nothing of a good position like Tommy Jones.

So I guess I should worry more about the free armswing than the stature of my wrist and how many revs I get, since accuracy will probably take me a much longer way than more revs. Although, I can't totally knock down the idea of more revs because I've found that it gives you a little more room for error and better carry percentage. Agree or disagree?

I would disagree about the more revs being a better margin of error. I would have to say that you have more margin for error if you let your ball do the work. I've bowled with high rev bowlers and with low rev bowlers and witht he higher revs unless they are really good they've had to wait for the lanes to be right for them. I've seen many high rev bowlers go from 250+ games to 140 and 150 games.

But on the flip side that extra power does help if you are off a little. However, I'd rather throw a lot of good accurate balls with a few lucky ones than throw 5 or 6 lucky ones and then have my luck run out.

Yeah there's a few people around here with high revs that are good at what they do. Sometimes they just have too much room for anyone to compete with in my opinion, since over/under happens less for them I think. Either way, it's also kinda back and forth. Sometimes strokers have the advantage, sometimes crankers so. By that I mean if a cranker misses in a way that the ball will come in light and can't carry that way, chances are the stroker can carry light and probably solid as well. Same with the other way around.

But in terms of hitting the head pin, I say people with high revs have the highest chance of doing so, with the exception of pretty accurate strokers. So obviously if high revs were a requirement to be good(and it's not, it just helps sometimes), the PBA tour would probably have the lowest rev rate being something like 350 at least.

Amateur, I would suggest that higher rev bowlers, in your term, Crankers, would be more affected by oil spread, carrydown, where it requires a very manageable adjustment for the stroker. Certainly, heavier oil concentration on the outside soes much more damage to the cranker's game.

In terms of how the ball carries, it really is a matter of entry angle, axis of rotation, and tilt, and either method can adjust their delivery to affect these. The outside play is the problem for the cranker. they need a bounce or it's 10 pin city.

It all depends i think if you can control those revs. I seen Cranker who have high revs and cant control them and seen them for from 250 down to 170.

I also seem high Revs player who can control there revs on given lane condition with change of hand position and are able to keep up with lane transition vs Cranker who cant control his revs.

So, reverse blocks or any other patterns where more concentration of oil is outside is basically trouble for the cranker? This is probably true, but I find that the good bowlers will find a way at least to the pocket. Carry might be another issue. I'm not a great bowler, but I see myself as a tweener, maybe just under it, and I think for my level I'm not that bad at changing things to turn carry in my favor. I'm doing a summer league at a house that if you throw a good shot and don't carry, change something because "eventually they'll go down" doesn't apply there. That's how I found out I'm pretty capable of changing whatever i need to in order to carry better.



I can do 300, then I can do 200 or less(not sure what it is. But the only way I can do 200 or less is to use only either the ring or middle finger. That's basically what I would do on really dry lanes if I don't want to move further in. Other than that I change axis rotation and or tilt to minipulate my roll. The only thing is if I'm going for something like 15-30 degrees I lose revs naturally because I don't turn my hand on that release, I just hold my hand the way I want to come out of it in my stance and keep it that way. That way there's almost no way I can overturn it and accidentally get unwanted rotation. Maybe that's one thing to practice, turning my hand at release to just the amount of rotation I want.

Then why ask the question if you are so adept at changing or using this style? It doesn't make sense really. If you would rather err on the side of luck or at least a perceived notion of skill, then why ask us if it is a good idea? It sounds like you've already made up your mind, you just want someone else to pat you on the back and say it's okay or good job.

I think what everyone is trying to find out or at least say to your question is, would you rather be lucky than skillful? Because from my experience it takes a long time for crankers and palmers to get good,and a lot of the times I see them it seems to me that they rely on the lanes being perfect for them or luck. Or maybe your asking is it okay to be skillfully lucky i.e. to have talent?

Ahh, what do I know, I've only been bowling competitively for a year and a month.

I was asking about the different styles out of pure curiosity since I was under the impression that more revs gave a bigger margin of error than the strokers have. But now that I think about it, and from my experience in league today, I think you're right about letting the ball do the work gives more margin for error.

Now I'm really curious about whether or not my balance arm plays a big part in my accuracy. What I mean to ask is, should I stick with this "stiff arm" type of movement I do with my balance arm(kinda like T.Jones), or do I need to have it more parallel to my target line from start to finish just like my hips and shoulders?

It depends really. If you're going to do the T. Jones shoulder dip thing I'd say you are fine with it the way it is. It's primary function is to balance you. As for myself, I use it to help balance myself and keep my shoulders parallel and square. If more of a stroker type style is what you want the it could have a bigger role, but it doesn't have to, in my opinion. My coach he's a tweener that has his balance arm pointed down a little and back a smidge. It really doesn't look like it does much for him.

The thing I like about letting the ball do the work are the times when you know you threw it right and you can turn around and know you got a strike. It's nice to do every now and again, especially for an intimidation factor. What's even better is when you time a motion with the sound of the ball hitting the pins. Hey every now and again it feels good to show off.

Oh but that aside you have a much greater margin of error because essentially you are attacking or going to the lanes instead of letting them come to you. Instead of waiting for a 230 game, you can attack and get three low 200 games and do just as well if not better than a patient bowler.

Yeah, I'm just thinking about keeping my balance arm straight out(maybe a little low too) to my side for consistency purposes. Sometimes, I belly the ball too far out and it's either due to the balance arm opening my shoulders more or the trail leg flying to the left opening my hips at release. Either way, I don't think it's impossible to swing it with my balance arm to my side, I just gotta make sure I line up right. This would sort of help me on my left hand spares because I would miss a lot of them to the right if there was more oil than the THS(the Shark for example).

Tell me what you think. Regardless I'll probably give it a try on Monday but I bet I won't get used to it right away. It's something I'll have to work on for sure. WRW is a perfect example of what I'd be going for with that arm.

While most crankers you see in most leagues will have a problem with heavier oil, and no bounce, its because its the ones that know nothing about lane play and having to used different lines. Most of these guys just want to see the hook and muscling the ball and can't adjust speed. Crankers can be highly erratic with ball placement but most THS will reward them. Now you do have those high rev bowlers that have free armswings and can adjust, many are on the Tour, such as Tommy Jones, Sean Rash, Robert Smith, Ken Simard and Wes Melot just to name a few, but there are some that can do so that are just local bowlers but they have learned the game, probably been coached at one point or another and know how to adapt to the lanes.

The thing is there are these type of bowlers in all the stroker and tweener group as well. Some house strokers won't move either or have an idea of how to play a different pattern Some struggle with the same issues as crankers because they too are used to the dry to start their ball toward the pocket and the oil inside to give hold. Any house bowler is like that, its the ones that bowl different houses and patterns and learn about adjustments and playing what the lanes give you and how to get to the pocket regardless of the "style" bowler they are.