Solid back row pin leaves happen when the ball has not lost enough energy as it hit the pocket and either hooks through the 5 pin leaving a 9,8 or 7, or it deflects as it hits the head pin , or hooks too hard into the head pin from too wide of an angle, and hits the 3 pin too solid which clips the left side of the 6 and shoots it around the 10.

Sometimes either giving the ball more room, less speed, heavier roll, or using a stronger ball will make it burn off enough energy to carry. Marshal Holman used to move 2 with his feet and 1 with his eyes and take some speed off the ball, this has worked well for me over the years.

As far as keeping stats goes, I feel that if the ball did not have enough power to take out the 5 pin after it hit the 1, and 3 then it is not a pocket hit and should not be counted as a pocket hit, if it manages to strike then count it, but if not then don't.

You are looking for the stats to tell you the percentage of times you threw the ball well enough to hit the 1,3 and 5, what you left is coincidental. Pocket 7-10s are called pocket 7-10s because...the ball hit the pocket. All I was saying before is that a 6 pin for right handers or a 4 pin for left handers is rarely the result of a pocket hit, it is either way high or way light but had enough impetus or luck to take out the 5. If you guys want to count it for your stats that is fine by me just say so, but it will damage your carry percentage which is based on the number of strikes you get on solid pocket hits which tells you if you were using the right line or ball.

I think how you want to consider a pocket hit in terms of keeping statistics depends a lot on where you are in terms of your game. The lower average bowler who has trouble consistently hitting the pocket is more worried about knowing how often they hit the pocket, not their carry percentage. So, I would think their sole concern would be "Did I hit the pocket or not?" They're not at the point where they can distinguish between a good pocket hit and a not so good pocket hit.

The higher average bowlers who know they can hit the pocket consistently are more worried about how often they carried when the hit the pocket so they know if they are using the right line or ball.

Mark

Valid point, Mark.

I bowled with a fellow who would hang around the better bowlers through the night. One night he made a comment that he was in the pocket all night, but kept leaving 5 pins. It became a joke to say, "I hate leaving solid 5 pins". It was obvious that he was incapable of a change on hisown. All he knew was that he was hitting the pocket.

Conversely, a more knowledgeable bowler should be able to adjust to a particular leave, so it doesn't recur. And, they should be able to adjust quickly. So, the recurrence of the leave should be minimized. So, the number of times your keep stats of a particular type of hit should be so infrequent or lessened that the stats are minimized.

What I'm getting from this is, everyone has their own definition of the pocket... So, when Slowinksi calculates carry percentage, I wonder what *he* uses... hmm.

You have high, flush, and light/Thin, all are considered pocket hits as far as I am concerned. Now a higher level bowler should have an idea how to change the outcome of any lack of carry on the flush hits. Some houses favor lighter hits, some favor high, it all depends on a multitude of variables. Usually a synthetic house will favor lighter hits a little more than wood houses will, just like AMF pinsetters tend to have better rebound for split conversions.

I guess I don't really understand the importance of carry percentage. If you are indeed hitting the pocket, small corrections with speed, angle, ball, or breakpoint will usually correct any lack of carry. You need to make those corrections quickly so doing a spreadsheet won't help you during the course of your game.

In Joe Slowinski's book "Bowler Reference System", it says: "Carry percentage is calculated by dividing the number of strikes by the number of pocket hits, (no Brooklyn hits, please)". He doesn't define what a pocket hit is just that Brooklyns don't count.

To me a pocket hit is the 1,3 and 5 if you want to figure it some other way just say so.

This thread reminded me of something, along with leaving one the other night in league, and that is the solid 8 leave. The reason I'm bringing it up in this thread is because of what happens to cause the solid 8 (or 9), and like the link I'm about to give you says, it's not what you think.

http://www.teamstatpro.com/solid8pin.htm

Read the description, look at the pictures, and also watch the videos that are linked on the page. If the videos don't work, which they didn't for me at my work computer, they do have 1 video up on youtube. Here is the link for that video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APaxT5KMwhc

I was surprised the first time I saw what really happens. I'm wondering what others would consider this to be, a really bad break on a good pocket hit that should strike, or it really wasn't a perfect hit in terms of angle and revs that causes the head pin to kick off the right side of the 2 pin and then end up hitting the 5 pin instead of the ball. Was it a fraction higher than a flush pocket hit? Plus, could you even distinguish from the approach how the ball hit differently to leave a solid 8 as opposed to being a strike? You pretty much have a good feeling when you are going to leave a solid or weak 10. Or should we even be worried due to the fact that the solid 8 is a leave that does not occur nearly as often as the corner pins?

Mark

Surprising video, Mark, but confirmed my suspicion.

USBC defines a pocket hit as one that hits at board 17 or 18, and with an entry angle of 4-6 degrees.

It also suggests that the pocket is widening due to a variety of factors. See the attached.

http://www.bowl.com/articleView.aspx?i=13433&f=21

Dennis,

Thanks for reminding me about those videos. I had seen them when the USBC first put them out, but then forgot about them. I really like the one that shows the 3 pin bouncing off of the 9 pin on the light hit to take out the 10 pin. It also illustrates how the 6 pin leave on the light hit occurs. The ball barely nicks the side of the 6 pin on the video, if the ball drives too hard and misses it, there is nothing there to knock out the 6 pin.

Mark