I got some video for myself today, for diagnostic purposes, but remembering this board and how lousy I am at explaining things, I also made a few videos of my shot to put here.

Here's a close-up of the full roller spin. I picked the Liberator because it's got a big logo across my PAP, and then I (thoughtlessly?) fixed a small strip of tape on a radius from the logo:


Here's a rear view of my 'technique'. I usually get a bit lower than this, but not much:


I picked up a 4pin with the Doom for a slightly different angle:


Here's the side view:


Believe it or not, I used to finish even higher than this. Then, I realized I needed to lower my body, almost immediately blew out my hip flexor, and a year and a half later, I'm finally strong enough to start making progress again.

Anyway, I look forward to whatever comments I receive.

untutored, what's the purpose of the dip?

I also tore the muscles in my hip, sliding one. And, it took a year and a quarter for it to mend. I still feel it with a strain.

the squatting at the beginning is just wasted energy. You are turning the ball early in the down swing, half way down your hand is on the right side of the ball, try keeping your hand on the left side until the swing reaches your heel then turn the ball. If you do this and it falls off your hand, try the two handed delivery and see if that keeps your hand behind the ball longer.

If you do experiment with 2 hands, Joe Slowinski's site has some drills to get your timing and technique on the right Track.

www.bowlingknowledge.info

These are the first 2 attempts I've seen at coaching this style, but from my read through it seems like he has isolated a couple of the key differences.

I'm trying to shock the muscles into action, same as with the rocking motion with my arm. I used to have moments where one muscle or another would start to protest or go dead a bit during my approach, which is why I developed this routine.


Year and a quarter...yeah, that sounds about right. That would put me at this January, which is when I started bowling well again.

I have one of those 'bed buddy' hot packs you stick in the microwave, and I use it to warm that muscle up before I leave (and on the car trip there). And I take an ibuprofan or a naproxin now. Also, I don't sit between shots any more. But aside from that, I'm pretty much back to normal now.

I'm not turning the ball at all, actually. The reason I'm behind the ball at the end of the backswing is that I've turned my shoulder.

We already discussed the fix in my other thread, where we talked about going from a full roller to a 3/4 roller. I'm working out the approach mechanics with the 'end-over-end' shot I'm trying to develop this summer.

I've seen that before. Slowinski is a smart guy.

As it turns out, the two-handed shot probably resembles the typical three-finger bowler's shot more than it does my shot. I'd love to learn it, but I'm probably too old and settled to make the commitment it would require.

O RLY?

YA RLY!


The ball is at that angle when I start, and it stays there throughout the swing. So, it's "turned", but I don't do any "turning".

I guess you could say that I'm turning the ball really early (before the pushoff).

Now you're selling yourself short. Your hand is in a great power position with the fingers inside the ball at the top of your backswing.



You want to keep it there until the ball passes your ankle. Without your thumb in, in might have a tendency to roll off the right side of your hand. This is why Jim suggested the 2 hand approach. The second hand goes on the ball on the right side (looking from behind) to keep it from falling off to the right. When you get to the ankle, the left hand comes away and the right hand makes a powerful release just like any other power release, thumb or no.

Since you're familiar with Slowinski, it's the same concept as his article on keeping the fingers on the inside of the ball.

You know how there are two types of "power bowlers" in the PBA--cuppers like Del Ballard and open-shoulder players like Brian Himmler--but you never see a bowler who cups and opens his shoulders? If you've seen thumbless bowlers before, didn't most of them have really short backswings?

The problem is that, if you cup behind the ball and then open your shoulder, you'll be completely sideways of the ball at the end of the backswing, so the cup doesn't help you at all (my guess is, the ball will fall to the ground if you don't have your thumb in it). You'll only be behind the ball at the end of the backswing if you start out cupping the ball sideways.

So, even though I'm behind the ball there (and that's a great capture btw), I'm actually still holding it diagonally. It would be easier to see if my shoulders were closed, but then the ball would be about a foot and a half to the right of my body and I wouldn't have the strength to control it.


I'm working on a shot with 12-6 spin right now--the first step to that is keeping my shoulders closed--and once I get that, I'll experiment with moving my fingers. My current shot really precludes me from making any serious finger movement.

So...what kind of help were you looking for?

Ideas, I guess.

I was thinking, if the open body position is what's keeping my hand behind the ball, maybe I shouldn't be squaring up so quickly. Instead of finishing straight and solid, I might be better off keeping my chest down.

I've looked at Ballard quite a bit trying to pick up his motion for the straight shot, but I haven't looked at the open-hand guys at all. My next step is probably to go to YouTube and get a good look at how those guys finish, to see whether there's something there I can apply to my own game.


Also, I think I'll get rid of the dip for a while, see whether I have any problems.


Trust me, this thread has been very helpful for me.

If you are going to bowl no thumb you should learn to do it right and copy someone who bowls no thumbed, Del Ballard is great, but you will not be able to bowl like him without putting your thumb in the ball. Watch this video of mike miller if you pause it at exactly 56 seconds you will see his hand position at the release.

I agree with CachJim and CG. You are in fact turning the ball early (even if you want to rationalize it or call it something else). If you don't want to fix it, that's up to you, but you're still doing it.

untutored, look at Sean Rash's hand in his swing. He is very cupped, very open, and stays inside the ball until his release point. Chris Barnes does the same. I do the same.

...

Wait, scratch that last one for now. I'll get there.

untutored, have you seen this?

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinski_2_handed_thumbless_drills.pdf

We're all agreed that it's in the wrong spot--that's why it's a full roller, because I'm not getting anything from the fingers.

We're just arguing about possible fixes.


I took a look at Rash, and from the front I thought you were right--it looked like he was opening up with his hand at 4:00 and then turning his hand to 6:00 as he pulled his arm into a figure 8. (Bringing the ball back sideways, twisting it straight, then twisting again on the release.)

I finally got a good look from behind, though, and now I think he's got his shoulder tucked just like Barnes does. The difference is that Rash pulls the ball to the left at the end of his backswing and then brings it back through his body.

Where he gets the strength to pull the ball around with his shoulder flexed like that, I have no idea, but that's what it looks like to me.


Either way, if you can do that, you're pretty good.

The part I like is at about :30, where the announcer says Miller is "living proof you don't have to turn your hand over to get a powerful bowling ball". It tickles me how they were holding him out as an improvement over Mark Roth.

Anyway, I'm not concerned with the arm or wrist yet, just trying to get the feel of bowling with my shoulder tucked, and trying to figure out where to put my feet, my balance arm, my off leg, etc.


Speaking of which, what do you think of my (new) leg kick? You mentioned in another thread how it might be too far to the left, but you didn't mention it in this thread, so I've been assuming it was OK...

I can't get the file to open.

I had to reinstall Adobe, so my computer might be at fault here.

It's bowlingknowledge.info

there is a highlight in the middle of the page on thumbless bowling.

Mark Roth is still bowling though, he bowled in the tournament in Connecticut this past year, and he also won 30+ more times than miller too.

Imho thumbless bowling is like trying to take a short cut, sometimes it pays off and sometimes you get burnt. The difference is when you get burnt it will be your wrist, elbow or shoulder tendons burning. You have a limited number of shots to throw using a thumbless style so make the most of them and keep your hand behind the ball and stop turning it early. Keep your elbow pointed toward your target.

Your leg kick looks fine it is in line with your target line.

No no no. You are using very bad language here - it should be censored from the boards. Words words that imply muscles directing the path of a pro's arm swing are incorrect. Gravity and physics make the ball do what it does.



Open and cupped.

Double

I finally got it. Yeah, very cool.

I saved it on my computer for now. If I'm able to get a good feel for the wrist next summer, maybe I'll try two-handed the following summer.

To be fair, Mike Miller is still bowling too. I saw an article on him pranking tour rookies a while back, so as recently as a few years ago he was still a tour professional.

(Also, bowling back then was just coming out of an era where there was a wider variety in technique, including a thumbless HOFer, Jim Godman.)

But yes, the joke is about Roth and how desperate they were to push him off the stage, even though he'd already established himself as a HOF-caliber player.


IMHO the reason you see so much thumbless bowling is that it allows you to throw a decent strike shot with ill-fitting (and cheap) equipment. That's kind of a big deal for bowlers who come into the game without a sponsor.

My take on the injury argument is, it's nice that there's this muscle-free style available where you can dial down the stress to your body and keep bowling into your 70s and 80s, but I don't see why muscled bowling is more of an injury risk than throwing a baseball--frankly, the bowling motion seems much more natural. If you cut the stress points from your swing and avoid racking up the abuse, you should be fine for as long as your strength holds up.


"Keep" is inappropriate here, since I've yet to point my elbow at the target since I started bowling. Except for my follow through at the very end, the straight path of the ball is the result of a combination of short arcs, neither of which follows the target line.

I'm experimenting with the closed shoulder, and on that shot I'll happily take your advice and try to aim with my elbow.


Thanks, good to know.

This is what felt right, but that's not always the proper indicator, obviously.

It looks that way from the front, which had me twisting my shoulder into a pretzel trying to imitate it. From behind, though, you can see that his shoulder is still tucked in.

It's not easy to see the angles because he's bent over, but as far as I can tell, Rash is turned on his legs rather than twisting his spine. Instead of abandoning his target as he moves left and then reacquiring it, it looks to me like he starts out addressing the lanes diagonally at his 'finishing angle', and the ball moves directly back and forward at that angle while his legs move in almost a strafing motion so that his (already locked in) line matches up with his target.


OK, so if little Johnny asks how Rash uses gravity and physics to make the ball change direction a foot over his head, how are we supposed to explain that? Should we tell him the stork puts it there?

How in the world can you think that his shoulders are not open. They're WIDE open.

Question 1: Where are his feet pointing?


Question 2" Where is his chest pointing?

That should pretty much settle it.

EDIT: And I agree with CG - You're throwing around words like you don't understand what they mean.

If you can't see that Sean Rash's shoulders are open, you don't understand what an open shoulder is in bowling. It means your shoulders are not square to your target line nor with the rest of your body. Your bowling shoulder is more behind the head/trunk of the body. Even while bent over you can see that the trunk of his body is twisted, the ripples in his shirt show that. Now considering Rash plays inside and extreme inside angles he does set it up with his legs being pointed toward the target line but his shoulders still open up in the swing.

As for gravity/physics changing the direction of the ball. He allows a 16 lb ball to swing freely which opens the shoulders up, and the swing can only go so high depending on how high he sets the ball up in his stance, physics, and then as it reaches the height of the back swing he allows gravity to bring the ball down and as the ball swings freely forward it closes his shoulders up, meaning square with his target line and with the rest of his body.

When I hear "open shoulder" I think of something very specific--a shoulder that's unlocked like it is when you hold your hand to the side of your body. If you bowl with that shoulder unlocked, like Brian Himmler or Steve Hoskins (or me, in that picture above), that makes you an "open shoulder bowler".

If the shoulder is tucked in like it does when you swing your arm directly behind you, that to me means it's "closed shoulder", regardless of where your feet or chest are.


If that's not the commonly-accepted way to use the word, then you're right, I don't understand what CG is saying.

Its my understanding that is what an open shoulder is, and I believe that is was CG is saying. A great example of the differences is the 2007 USBC Masters with Rash-vs.-Jaros.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BpQTeTxK-pQ

Jaros stays more square, including keeping his shoulders almost level and Rash is opening up the shoulder and dipping the bowling shoulder. This could be used as part of a definition between strokers and crankers as many strokes stay squared up more like Norm Duke, Walter Ray or Steve Jaros.

Untutored,

I think I see why you misunderstood the term. You keep on saying "open shoulder" where everyone else keeps on saying "open shoulders". The term doesn't refer to just what your swing shoulder is doing, it refers to what both of your shoulders are doing, are they both staying square to the target (closed), or are they turned away from the target, thus opening up your shoulders to the target. Hope that this helps.

Mark

OK, this makes sense to me.

So yeah, I've been talking about something different the whole time and just using the wrong word for it. Sorry about that.

where is that? Via Linda?

Tucson, Arizona.

It's Lucky Strike Bowl, which is not my regular lanes, but it's close.

Oh wow, I haven't been there in years. Is Golden Pin still around? I bowled a few Tourneys there back in the day.

Golden Pin is still around. My league was there the first two years I was back in town--it's far from my house, but I was splitting the difference with a friend of mine.

They just re-did those entire lanes in the last few months. New surface on the lanes (I bowled on the same wood you did back in the day, that's how old they were), plus they added those electronics that slice and dice your score, calculate your ball speed, etc. The people behind the counter are the same as before, though.

I always liked Golden Pin, I used to tear that place up. I preferred the old seedy dive places over the Mega Bowl o rama's. The places I liked in Phoenix are all gone now, except Sunset (used to be Nothgate) and Glenfair. Aero Boel is gone, Maricopa gone, Wagon Wheel gone, Thunderbird gone. Its sad really.

The State Tournament was in Phoenix last year, and we did our team event at Glenfair, so I know what you mean. You couldn't hide that place any better if you tried. (Singles and doubles were at Christown, which is one of the Bowloramas you were talking about.)

My current house is Cactus Bowl, which is a Vantage house but it has an independent Pro Shop. IMO the bowling scene here is very good--cheap everywhere and plenty of independent houses.

If you have a free armswing, try pushing the ball out to the right and see what happens. Then try pushing the ball out to the left, and see what happens. Like everything else, it's an adjustment you can use when playing different parts of the lane. Walter Ray Williams, Wes Malott, Rash all start the ball inside their target so that it loops back to the inside at the top of the swing.

In any case, I'm done. You are fighting tooth and nail that there is nothing you can do to improve your release, and it seems we can't convince you otherwise.