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#57400 - 05/23/08 06:54 PM League Types
Arthur Offline
Bantam

Registered: 11/05/06
Posts: 11
A/S/L: Memphis
I joined 2 summer leagues this year, and i find both of them odd. One is our doubles league which is in 2 halves and is won by pin count and has a 90% 220 handicap. I don't understand why they have a league which promotes Sandbagging so heavily. I know not everybody will do it but it only takes one team to screw up the fun of the league. If you can win the first half your going to get 1st or 2nd place money so pin count no longer matters. It's to easy for that team just to throw off for the rest of the 2nd half and build up handicap to have a better chance at 1st place. Or throw off the 1st half and build up a handicap for the 2nd half.

our other league is a 179 and under scratch league in which they match people up based on their avg. last week i bowled a 183 avg and won all my matches by 50 pins. It would be easy to bowl under your avg to continue bowling people with 130 avgs and keep winning games.

So why do they have leagues built this way the doubles league is built more like a scratch league and the scratch league is built like a handicap league.

the team handicap in the winter i bowl in although people can sandbag its not quite as benificial b/c of the uncertanity of what the other team will do in the 9th and 10th frame. and the fact that their is money won based on games won for each team.

in the summer leagues the doubles pay 1st and 2nd place a auto amount. and in the scratch 1-4 win a auto amount.

_________________________
2007/2008 goals current
---------------------------------
270+game- - - - - 300game (first ever)twice this year now
675+series- - - ---782 first ever 700 series series
190+avg- - -- - -- 185 avg (moving up almost weekly)
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Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#57412 - 05/23/08 08:24 PM Re: League Types [Re: Arthur]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
People get bored of the same old format. So someone comes up with a "brain child" of an idea and they try it out. If it works and people enjoyed the league then they usually floor again. But I don't think there's a system out there yet where an unjust advantage cannot be manipulated. Every sanctioned league around here has a league meeting prior to the league bowling its first night. That's when every bowler in the league attends and proposes any changes to the rules and votes on it.

Erin

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#57420 - 05/23/08 10:22 PM Re: League Types [Re: Atochabsh]
Silent Mike Offline
Hall of Famer Contender

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 998
A/S/L: 39/M/Poconos PA
They just voted away our only real serious scratch league at the end of the Winter season. It seems people really do enjoy hiding in handicap leagues. We did vote on a min. 180 average per person(can be 180, 180, 190, 170 for example) this way it keeps handicap to a minimum. I understand the place of handicap leagues but I hate leagues that are set up where it benefits you to keep the average managable if not low. I like to shoot what I shoot but in the end that hurts the team. it is what it is though, I'm use to being on teams that give pins and rarely get. That's bowling.
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#57424 - 05/23/08 10:47 PM Re: League Types [Re: Silent Mike]
Arthur Offline
Bantam

Registered: 11/05/06
Posts: 11
A/S/L: Memphis
The big issue with it all is the fact that your bowling for money and both summer leagues are 15 and 13 weeks. so manipulating your avg/handicap is actually pretty easy a "bad week" can drop your avg 3 to 4 pins. And just like all sports the goal is to Win. Strategy plays a part in winning. in the 179 and under scratch league, knowing that i can bowl a 150 everytime i bowl and throwing off when my opponet throws a bad game so i can contiue bowling against the lower guys to improve my wins and chances at first place seems like a simple and easy strategy.

But sadly im cursed with the competitve nature of not only bowling who im bowling against but vs myself and wanting to improve my avg everyweek and to get that next honor score.


It would all be easy if people were honest in nature, but sadly its not the case and theirs always that person or one team that trys to get that unfair advantage.

_________________________
2007/2008 goals current
---------------------------------
270+game- - - - - 300game (first ever)twice this year now
675+series- - - ---782 first ever 700 series series
190+avg- - -- - -- 185 avg (moving up almost weekly)
---------------------------------


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#57426 - 05/23/08 11:04 PM Re: League Types [Re: Silent Mike]
untutored Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 269
A/S/L: 35/m/arizona
That sucks, Mike.


I was in a scratch league two years ago; this year, my league gave 90% of 200 handicap (three bowlers over 215 in that league, with another dozen over 200). My summer league this year is another scratch league.

I'd prefer to stick to formats where I don't get handicap for the time being, so I'll have incentive to improve.
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#57436 - 05/24/08 09:04 AM Re: League Types [Re: untutored]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9807
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
It's common to base handicap at or near the top bowlers in the league. And, I'm not sure what the logic is. Seems to me the handicap limit should be lowered, and those over it should be scratch. Give those lower than 200 a cap. Those over should bowl scratch. Or, change the % to 95 to tighten the league difference.

Head to head competition, during league does make it more competitive too. I can't really say that I openly have seen people sandbag, with the full intention of holding their average down. To me, it's just a word that I haven't experienced.

It was strange to me when I got into my first cap league based on 220. So, why was there discussion a the USBC meeting a year ago to base all handicap on 300?
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#57470 - 05/24/08 01:39 PM Re: League Types [Re: Dennis Michael]
untutored Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 269
A/S/L: 35/m/arizona
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
It's common to base handicap at or near the top bowlers in the league. And, I'm not sure what the logic is.

I'm pretty sure it's done for the benefit of the lower-average bowlers.

At 90% of 200, the difference between a 150 bowler and a 200 bowler is five pins. The difference between a 200 bowler and a 205 bowler is also five pins. To me, that's fair--as a 200 bowler, the difference in skill level between 200 and 205 is not that far from the difference between 150 and 200.

On the other hand, when a team is getting 20 or 30 pins per game that aren't covered in the handicap, that team's going to be a prohibitive favorite. The team in our league that had 30 pins not counted in the handicap went 100.5-39.5 in points this year. (We 'only' had 20 not counted, and I think we went 94.5-45.5.)

Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
So, why was there discussion a the USBC meeting a year ago to base all handicap on 300?

It's currently based on 230. I guess there are too many 240+ bowlers nowadays...
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Bounty, Original Black Pearl (800 w/polish), Copperhead, Avalanche Solid (2000), Sidewinder, Liberator (4000), Faball Red Pearlized Hammer

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#57474 - 05/24/08 02:17 PM Re: League Types [Re: untutored]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9807
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I really think the 90% rule should be increased. Anyone who receives a handicap to equate to the higher bowler, is only getting 90% of the average difference. 95% is much more parity.

The issue of sandbagging seems to be more prevalent to those who bowl in handicapped tournaments, then in leagues. There is a much higher payout possible.
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#57479 - 05/24/08 03:04 PM Re: League Types [Re: Dennis Michael]
desertdog71 Offline
Pro of the Year Contender

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 793
A/S/L: 38/M/Independence, KS
90% of 200 and No more walled up house shots. That is what I would call fair. Just me though.
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#57786 - 05/27/08 02:51 PM Re: League Types [Re: Arthur]
TheDemolitionMan Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 2840
A/S/L: 23/Male/California, US
Sam you should see if there are any leagues like the winter one that I was in or find a way to get one set up at your house. It was a handicapped league, 90% of 220, and it's a trios league. The teams and points however are different. The bowling order is decided on by the averages of the members bowling on the team i.e. lowest leading off and highest being anchor. If one team mate surpasses the other in average then the order changes.

The points are done differently as well. There were a total of 25 availiable points a team could win. 2 pts a game x 3 games x 3 people= 18 points. Then there is a pt awarded for your team winning the total of the game, which is 3 points. Then there are 4 pooints awarded for winning the total pins for the night.

The cool thing about this league is that is makes you compete with your teammates, the individual you are bowling against to get your 2 points a game, and you have to do well enough so that your team can win totals for the night. I really liked it.
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