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#5745 - 09/15/04 01:57 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Coach04 Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 1000
A/S/L: Male/Texas
Have you ever actually inspected a lane?

You couldn't be more wrong.

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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#5746 - 09/26/04 01:34 AM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Pati Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2
A/S/L: 45/F/ VA
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by Atochabsh:
I am not in favor of handicapping 100%. Reason being that 100% gives absolutely no incentive for lower average bowlers to get better. A 170 - 200 bowler has some years of experience, probably a contemporary reactive ball or two, taken some lessons, and practises during the week. They deserve some advantage, compared to the 100 - 130 average bowler that just goes down to throw a ball, drink and socialize.


Erin
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Had to respond to this, since it is absolutely wrong. Why does any high avg bowler feel the need to have an additional advantage over a low avg bowler? When the handicap is set at 100% (personally I feel it should be 100% of 300), both high and low avg bowlers start out even, provided they both bowl their averages, a feat more easily accomplished by the more skilled bowler. The one thing that discourages me, the lower averaged bowler, is knowing that even if I manage to hit my average, the higher averaged bowler doesn't even have to do that to win.

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#5747 - 09/26/04 03:32 AM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
My point was NOT that higher average bowlers NEED handicap to beat lower average bowlers, rather that if you give 100% handicap it does not promote any incentive to get better.

The chances of hitting your average is the same for a high average bowler as it is for a low average bowler....that's why its an AVERAGE. So you are wrong on that point. What you may be seeing that appears to not illustrate this is that a 130 bowler creates their average with a greater differnce in score. While a 200 average bowler will create their average by being as close to that average most of the time as possible.

The improvement issue is much greater for the lower average bowler. It is much easier to get the 130 - 150 bowler to improve 20 pins, then it is to get the 200 average bowler to improve 20 pins. Improving the higher average bowler is much harder since it demands more fine tuning of mechanics, consistency, repetition and stringing strikes with no opens. The demand on the bowler is much greater, IMO to improve at that level. While at 130 - 150 there are so many issues and knowledge a coach can use to improve their student that a 20 pin improvement is meerly a "seed" to bigger and better things.

How do you get better? You take lessons, you read written information (including this forum), you study ball paths and lines to the pocket.

How do you NOT get better? By being given 100% handicap.

Everyone that now averages 200+, absolutely everyone, did not start there. Honest, bowlers (even pro bowlers) were not birthed Bowling 200. They worked, practised, joined numerous leagues, put themselves in tournament/pressure situations, sought coaching, read information and then when they'd done that.....they started that process all over again.

I understand that most bowlers do not readily realize that there is SOOOOooooo much help to be gained by seeking more concrete knowledge and coaching about the sport of bowling. Its an aspect of the sport that really bothers me. If you want to play tennis, you take tennis lessons, if you want to play golf, you take golf lessons......but, if you want to bowl, hardly anyone starts out taking bowling lessons. Why are most bowlers self taught? I have no idea. Unless of course you just don't care to get better. And that's OK. Bowling has a huge social aspect built into it that does not promote improvement. Some people are perfectly satisfied with a night out, with fellow adults, in an atsmosphere where you can relax, and just have fun. Others want more and seek out the tools that will enable them to improve.

100% and negative handicap, promote stagnancy within the sport.

Erin

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#5748 - 09/26/04 04:57 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Coach04 Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 1000
A/S/L: Male/Texas
As true as that may be, the fact is that handicap is not a teaching aid or an incentive program.

It is as stated in the rule book "A methhod for placing bowlers on an equitable scoring basis". Nothing more and nothing less.

I bowl in a 100% handicap league, and if a 98 pin bowler beats me, I am the first one to congratulate them. Seeing the look on their face as they run around and tell everyone they beat the coach, is enough for me. It makes for happy bowlers that return next season, and that keeps bowling centers open and profitable so I can continue to bowl.

My serious bowling is done in scratch league and in tournaments, my fun bowling is done in handicap leagues.

I even bowl in a seniors handicapped no-tap league. When an 80 year old woman beats me, she feels 40 years younger the rest of the day. Everyone on that league will tell you they hate to bowl me necause I bowl to well. But everyone of them plan for their turn in the rotation to get a shot at me.

Regular league is not the place where the sport advances. It is the place where the people get hooked on the game. Advancement and stagnation occur on the tough cutting edge of the sport. In the tournaments, the scratch leagues, the sport leagues, the PBA etc.. There are plenty of places for the person who doesn't want handicap to bowl.

John and Jane Doe, need handicapping to help keep their intrest up, and keep them coming back for more. We all benefit from that.

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#5749 - 09/26/04 08:59 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Some good points Coach04. I do believe that there are multiple ways to generate ongoing interest in the sport. And one of them is to learn more, apply what you've learned and improving your skill level. That helps keep people coming back each year too. If you choose to take lessons and really improve your game, you are not going to be bowling scratch in a year or so(and perhaps not ever). So the handicap leagues remain the only format for those improving bowlers that are not up to scratch competition yet.


Erin

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#5750 - 09/26/04 11:48 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Coach04 Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 1000
A/S/L: Male/Texas
People interested in really improving their game are few and far between, (unfortunately). Out of the 3.2 million sancioned bowlers in the USA, maybe 200 to 300 thousand really work at being their best.

I think the bowling proprieters could do alot to change that by holding more local tournrments, where bowlers compete against other people within 20 pins of their own average. Like an 80 to 100 group and 100 to 120 etc. etc.. Give them a chance at winning cash and the thrill of competing one to one. I believe many more people would be looking to improve if there was a chance for profit in it.

But basically about 90% of our bowlers are attending a social event, to get out of the house, drink some beer, and have some fun with friends, in a common upbeat atmosphere. If they feel they are being fleeced out of the prize money by a disadvantaged handicap, they just don't come back.

Believe me, I am all for seeing bowlers improve. That's why I am here giving away for free, what I could be charging for. I love this game, and every time I can help someone else enjoy it more, the game improves.

That is also the reason I never knock handicaps. What ever the league votes to set up, I'm good to go with it. There are many, many leagues with an amazing variety of handicapping methods, so there is a league for everyone to feel comfortable in.

With new bowlers, and low average bowlers I advise them on selecting the right league to give them a fair chance. There is no need to get in over your head, nor enter a league where you have no chance to win. If they go in blindly on their first league, it could very well be their last.

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#5751 - 09/27/04 11:40 AM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Pati Offline
Bumper Bowler

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2
A/S/L: 45/F/ VA
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Originally posted by Atochabsh:
[QB] My point was NOT that higher average bowlers NEED handicap to beat lower average bowlers, rather that if you give 100% handicap it does not promote any incentive to get better.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">I am telling you as a lower averaged bowler that you are wrong. If I know I have a fair chance to beat my high average opponent, I have all the incentive I need. The opposite is equally true. It is so demoralizing to know that the higher avg bowler does not have to hit their average, even if I am lucky enough to hit mine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">The chances of hitting your average is the same for a high average bowler as it is for a low average bowler....that's why its an AVERAGE. So you are wrong on that point. What you may be seeing that appears to not illustrate this is that a 130 bowler creates their average with a greater differnce in score. While a 200 average bowler will create their average by being as close to that average most of the time as possible.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Wrong wrong wrong! The higher averaged bowler is far more consistant, as you pointed out. I, the lower averaged bowler, am rarely consistant on a 3 game night. I have to depend on luck for the most part, whereas the higher avg'd bowler relies almost exclusively on skill.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">
The improvement issue is much greater for the lower average bowler. It is much easier to get the 130 - 150 bowler to improve 20 pins, then it is to get the 200 average bowler to improve 20 pins. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Again you are wrong wrong wrong! If it so much easier as you say for me to improve, then why aren't I? It all goes back to skill and honest to goodness talent. not to mention desire to be a 200+ bowler. The 200+ bowlers just don't have as much fun, and that's a shame. If I have a bad night, I still have fun, and still smile. The higher avg'd bowlers are the ones kicking the ball return and cussing the lanes.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA"> The demand on the bowler is much greater, IMO to improve at that level. While at 130 - 150 there are so many issues and knowledge a coach can use to improve their student that a 20 pin improvement is meerly a "seed" to bigger and better things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">What bigger and better things? We just want to bowl once a week; its all we can afford! I say the demand is much greater on me, the lower avg bowler if I want to win, which of course I do; that's human nature. I know that I not only have to hit my average, certainly not a guarantee, I have to go over far more than my much more skilled opponant does, which as you so clearly pointed out is far more likely to happen.

Believe me when I say that every single first ball I throw is my very best attempt at a strike, and every second throw is my very best attempt to get a spare. When I aim for the middle and it goes to the side has me as perplexed as anyone else. After all, that's not where I told it to go. I can see where it needs to go, but sometimes it just doesn't work. I don't think it should be a requirement to work my way towards a 200 avg. I am there to have fun first and foremost. If you are there to become a 200+ bowler, I think you are in the wrong league. As was said by the "Coach" I think...the handicap system is supposed to level out the playing field, not make it a little easier for us less talented bowlers.
In our summer league we voted the handicap from 80% to 90% and I heard the president mutter under her breath "I am not going to give any more."
I felt like replying: "I am giving you a 10% advantage that you don't even need! And that's if and only if I manage to go beyond my average!" This is not a scratch league! In a handicap league we are supposed to start out even. I know that if it were changed to 100%, most of the high average bowlers will either quit or sandbag, which I have also heard muttered. 90% seems to be the most tolerated compromise, and the higher avg'd bowlers are still put out about it. They seem to think it demoralizing for them because they have to give someone like me so many pins. They just don't seem to understand that on an average basis, they consistantly beat me by about that many pins. Why is it that they don't continue to improve if they are so sure they are starting out at such a supposed disadvantage? Seems to me 100% should benefit all bowlers, provided they have the proper attitude.

After all 100% simply means this: If everyone bowls their exact average, they tie. Simple enough right? Therefore the bowler that wins, is the bowler that bowls more pins over their average. A feat that is still more likely to happen to the better bowler due to their skill.
The way I see it, that gives all bowlers the incentive to improve.

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#5752 - 09/27/04 04:03 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
<<I, the lower averaged bowler, am rarely consistant on a 3 game night. I have to depend on luck for the most part, whereas the higher avg'd bowler relies almost exclusively on skill.>>

You are selling yourself so short! You wouldn't have to depend on luck (to use your words and feelings) if you took a couple lessons and improved your skill level. You have so much animosity for anyone that bowls better then you. I don't understand it, because they dont' deserve your scorn. They didn't get better just to make you upset. Believe it or not, but that attitude makes you even easier to beat.

<<If it so much easier as you say for me to improve, then why aren't I? It all goes back to skill and honest to goodness talent. not to mention desire to be a 200+ bowler.>>

All you have to do, is take a few private lessons. Are you doing that? All you have to do is get some books and publications (free from the library) and start absorbing information. Are you doing that? No one person was born a 200 average bowler or even a 160 average bowler. It takes work, desire, effort, practise and determination along with structured guidence from a tutor. Repitition of bad habits will only keep you down, and of course you will not improve. To keep repeating the same action and expecting different results is ignorance.

<<What bigger and better things? We just want to bowl once a week; its all we can afford!>>

Obviously you miss the entire point. Bigger and better things? How about the self satisfaction of imrpoving your skill in an activity you enjoy? Its OK if you cannot afford it. But if that's so, then you really cannot cry foul when it doesn't happen. Nothing is free in life except handicap.

<<Believe me when I say that every single first ball I throw is my very best attempt at a strike, and every second throw is my very best attempt to get a spare. >>

Then you are with absolutely everyone else's mind frame too. Now we know you are not a sandbagger.

You only improve through education. I'm reading all excuses to justify your lack of desire to improve yourself and thus not require so much handicap. Your 10% loss (based on 90% handicap) can be quickly nullified if you get a couple 9 counts instead of 3 counts or one spare each game. A tiny, small bit of guided tutoring can get you that within a very small timeframe and cost.

Do you have a cam corder or know someone that does? Here's some free help, tape yourself and if the ball goes off to the side, look where you thumb is pointing. The ball will follow where your thumb points, so use that as a guide. That is a very brief elementary lesson. Good luck and I hope that you do improve and find yourself enjoying the game even more.

Erin

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#5753 - 09/28/04 11:12 AM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
petrinjak Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 81
A/S/L: 34/Male/Virginia
Not to take away from what appears to be developing into a rather spirited discussion but..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA"> It takes work, desire, effort, practise and determination</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">I think this is part of the point Pati is trying to make based off of her statement of

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA"> We just want to bowl once a week </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="VERDANA,ARIAL,HELVETICA,TAHOMA">Some people are content with just the social aspect - hang out with friends have a few drinks. But even in a social game, of any sort, the competition adds to the fun.

Although - Pati, it sounds like you may want to look at a different league for next year...or maybe the individuals that are interested in the competition more than the social aspect will find a new league next year and everything will be good.

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#5754 - 09/28/04 01:20 PM Re: Scoring/Points and Handicap Systems
makinshots Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 145
A/S/L: Female/Pennsylvania
Unbelieveable...what I am reading. It never ceases to amaze me what people are thinking when they join a league, and what their expectations are. The one thing that I do know is that everyone wants the chance to win.. and to do so you must excel with or without handicap. And, I would feel pretty safe saying that both types of bowlers/teams win on a regular basis (the scratch bowlers do not always win and vice versa). What I do not like to see is any bowler stereotyping another bowler. As a 210+ average bowler, anyone who knows me will tell you the same thing...I am intense when competing, practicing and during leagues, but that does not mean that I do not have fun, and I certainly never abuse the center's equipment or anything else for that matter. As well, I have, on many occasions, responded to a bowler who wants to improve by staying after my league or coming up on a separate day with that bowler to help him or her with their game, for FREE. And I am a certified coach. Why...I love this game and I understand that for bowling to grow as a sport (not just a game) in this country, we have to help each other. Scratch bowlers do not have all the answers, and they are not all friendly/happy people, but then are the handicap bowlers really that happy all the time?

I have been forced out of leagues because of my average and certainly not welcomed in others for the same reason, but for those leagues willing to take a chance on me as an athlete, they are not disappointed. I am helpful, polite and an asset to anyone who asks for my guidance. I suggest that anyone who is unhappy about their performance should seek help from a knowledgeable source and allow their mind to stay open, that is the only way you can be happy with this great game.

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